Patriarchy at its FINEST, or Prick-hoodiest. You decide

I’ve noticed that our friend Todd responds to me with anger, nastiness, and profanity. Particularly if I should dare to use PROFANITY (oh, sacred woman of Zion) myself. Welcome to patriarchy.

PATRIARCHY. Where men think they OWN women, because a woman can only “hold” the Priesthood through her MAN. Kiss my ass. My body is just as worthy of God’s blessings, whatever they are, as yours. Your PENIS does not give you priority or seniority, or any other kind of ORITY over me.

You want to make excuses for WHY GOD GAVE THE PRIESTHOOD TO MEN? Please, Todd, address that. Don’t circle it. Or demean me on my own blog in an attempt to cover the fact that you just don’t FUCKING know. Why are men superior to women? I admit the fact that the world is your toilet is admirable, and women don’t have the same ability, but THIS IS A BASE FUNCTION. The most BASE and degrading functions of our very, very, human bodies. We must excrete waste.

The fact you have a PENIS does not make you better than me. So stop talking down to me. And if you can’t? GO away. My brain is every bit as functional as yours, and my spirit is just as strong, and GUESS WHAT? I can see your tomfoolery and spinning and circular thought patterns, apparently much better than you can.

You NEVER address an issue. NEVER. You just circle around it.

Tell me this, Todd.

If YOUR CHURCH is the only true church, there should be ONE SOLID FOUNDATION. And yet, there are THREE, count em, THREE, different versions of the first vision, complete with different personages.

If it HAPPENED, it damn sure better have happened one way. That is the ONLY WAY it can be truth. Otherwise, it’s just someone’s feelings or delusions, or better yet, dreams.

So tell me, Todd. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THREE DIFFERENT VERSIONS?

Put your penis away and use your brain. How does that work? Please tell us all. The world is waiting to know.

This, my friend, is a FULL OUT CALL to answer. Address ONLY this question. How do you explain THREE different versions of the first vision, all from the same man, all with different people, and yet CALL THIS TRUTH? Does truth have fourteen names? Truth is TRUTH.

So explain it. And avoid the name calling and every other part of revisionist church history.

EXPLAIN how you can have three different versions of “one” event, and yet call all three truth. EXPLAIN. And put your penis away. I don’t want to see it.

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About Natalie R. Collins

Natalie has more than 30 years writing, editing, proofreading and design experience. She has written 20 books (and counting), has worked for the Sundance Film Festival, and as an investigative journalist, editor, and proofreader. She embraces her gypsy-heart and is following her new free-thinking journey through life. Follow her as she starts over and learns a bunch of life's lessons--some the hard way.
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33 Responses to Patriarchy at its FINEST, or Prick-hoodiest. You decide

  1. birdman says:

    Todd…where did you go???
    You were asked a direct question and you ran from it…you went back to the old post and used the same old lines and misdirection, but you can’t come out and answer the question?

    Like

  2. Todd says:

    birdman,

    I’m not the one who left. You are.

    I didn’t go BACK to the old post, I never left the old post.

    Your and Natalie’s tactics of changing the topic (and now the entire post) with more inflammatory, hollow assertions is becoming comical.

    So let me get this straight. If Natalie directs a post at me with anger, nastiness, and profanity; it’s okay. But if I retort in kind, it’s patriarchy? Hmmm…. There’s a double-standard if I ever saw one.

    Pulling the armed service card, or the gender card, or the priesthood card is nothing more than a smokescreen against your ridiculous assertions.

    Todd

    Like

  3. Todd says:

    Natalie,

    As I was saying in the last post, regarding your assertion that the different tellings of the first vision experience are completely different:

    It is categorically false to state that the different “tellings” of the first vision experience are “completely” different. That assertion has zero basis in fact. There are at least nine known major recitals, and the harmony between them is readily apparent. Your refusal to concede ANY similarities says volumes about the depths of your depravity.

    You can play any card you want. You can even start a new post, and use the priesthood card, or the gender card, or whatever. It doesn’t matter. You will never be able to conceal your obvious refusal to consider the facts.

    And because you seem to think it’s relevant, I say all of this with the utmost regard for you as a non-priesthood-holding woman.

    Todd

    Like

  4. You still do not EVER answer the question. EVER, Todd. Just ANSWER THE QUESTION.

    Like

  5. birdman says:

    Great answer Todd…WTF did you say????
    Misdirection has always been a big part of the church’s defense mechanism…
    The question you were asked and again refused or were unable to answer is:

    HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THREE DIFFERENT VERSIONS?

    Run around in circles, claiming name calling, gender issues (which is actually a priesthood issue) or any other diversion you can think of…all you were asked to do was answer one question.
    This is a very simple tactic in this post…frontal assault…just answer one question.
    Why do you call any thing we say an assertion? Why is what you say or write truth without evidence, but what we say or write is an assertion?

    I find you amusing and entertaining…in the 45 years that I have known your current church president and prophet, he has never once said anything derogatory about my belief, he has never asserted his view of religion onto me. So when I see Tommy this weekend, I will ask him about this type of behavior from his church members…it is one of the arenas that the birds remove stratification from…with the birds we are all equal…and Tommy has always treated me that way.

    Like

  6. Todd says:

    Oh, so now you’re trying to play the “Todd won’t answer the question” card, when that question was answered very deliberately and quite adequately in the comments of the last post.

    Why the new post?
    Why the sudden interest to repeat the question here?
    Why the need for more smokescreen?

    I think you’re in a corner and can’t find a way out without admitting that your assertion is baseless.

    No more talk of penises and priesthood. Just admit that your assertion cited above is utterly baseless.

    Todd

    Like

  7. Todd says:

    birdman,

    HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE OBVIOUS AND APPARENT HARMONY BETWEEN ALL OF THE RECITALS OF THE FIRST VISION WHILE ASSERTING THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?

    Note that I’m associating you with Natalie’s assertion. But you obviously want that association.

    Just answer the question.

    Todd

    Like

  8. birdman says:

    Todd, a bit of light reading for you…of course, you are going to claim it is all cliches…whatever

    http://www.irr.org/mit/First_Vision.html

    Prior to the official version (actually written in 1838 but not published until 1842), it was an angel not God the father and Jesus that appeared to him prior to that, the 6 unofficial versions only an angel appeared to him…previously, the vision occurred in his room and in the 1835 account was changed to a grove.

    But, they are all in Harmony…the only thing in harmony, is that they only occurred to Jo Smith…

    Like

  9. kts says:

    You can’t reason with brain-washed individuals. Can you imagine what it would be like to realize you have been living a lie, and even worse those you love have been. It’s much easier to defend it and not go there.

    I was hoping Mormonism was correct. I was hoping I was wrong, a sinner, under the devils influence, but I have to say that it is only a lifestyle. It’s scary when you realize that your life has been a lie. It’s scary when the ones who lied to you were the ones who loved you the most.

    Vulnerability attracts external solutions. Be careful when you are vulnerable; you might have two young men with name tags knocking on your door. Knock, knock, knock, “have we got a deal for you. Your troubles will soon be over.”

    Like

  10. Carl says:

    Hey Todd – ever get tired of getting your ass kicked on this blog?

    You really aren’t coming across very well at all. Simple truth here: not one person, place or event in the BOM actually existed. Mormonism is a made-up religion that has some very good practices and teachings, mixed with some very dangerous, deceptive ones.

    And, it is an entirely different church than the one that Joseph and Brigham conceived.

    I honestly believe that one day, I will be reading this blog site or some other literature, and I’ll find writings from you that reveal how you actually came to find out that your church was a scam. Right now, you will resist and rant against it, but the seeds of truth have been planted, and you appear intelligent enough to figure this whole thing out. Life is truly much, much better without the dogmatic, ritualistic superstitions that man has created to entice and secure membership in the LDS church.

    If I could somehow reveal to you the events in my life that have led me to the difficult decision of leaving the Mormon church, I believe that you would be touched. I already know and understand very well the tight hold and family issues that make it very difficult to walk away. It’s always much easier to continue living the lie. But it is a lie…………..

    Carl

    Like

  11. Todd says:

    birdman,

    If Joseph’s vision was changed from his room to the grove in 1835, then how do you account for the 1832 version where he personally wrote:

    … the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness … (ref)

    If it was only a generic reference to “angels” until the 1838 version, then how do you account for the 1832 version where he personally wrote:

    … the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me … (ref)

    Your assertion that the different recitals are “completely” different is hollow and baseless. If all you can do is regurgitate smut from irr, no wonder you’re confused.

    Kindest Regards,
    Todd

    Like

  12. Todd says:

    Carl,

    Why would I get tired of something the NEVER happens? 🙂

    Besides, I learn so much from you guys.

    Regards,
    Todd

    Like

  13. Cele says:

    I love that he calls it fact. It just makes me shake my head. sad sad and delusional.

    Like

  14. birdman says:

    Todd,
    All of us have attempted to show you some light, several of us have done it indirectly, hoping you would find the fact that the Mormon church is a farce, a sham and based upon the fabrication of Joseph Smith…Carl laid it out for you…maybe one day a light will shine through and you will understand that we tried.
    Birdman

    Like

  15. Carl says:

    Hey Todd,

    1832 is 12 years after the event supposedly happened. Don’t you think that if God and his son visited someone, it would be immediate fantastic news! Especially since not one of the accounts ever swore Joseph to secrecy. It’s not a matter of having a vision in his room or in the wilderness. An intelligent person must ask; if you were a young man and God and Jesus visited you, don’t you think that you would tell your own mother? Or at least tell one friend that might record the actual event in a journal or writing somewhere?

    There are so many glaringly obvious inconsistencies with the stories that it is inconceivable that anyone could place any credence on the story. Seriously, if God personally told you that all churches were false, would you go out and get baptized into one of them?

    The Mark Hoffman forgeries should have opened the eyes of LDS faithful when leaders of the church are secretly buying up these forged documents and hiding them away. Many of the forgeries were versions of visions that Joseph supposedly received; concerning white salamanders, spirits etc.

    Far too much bull shit for this man to continue believing. Even as a true believer for the majority of my life, when I would read about this stuff, I would scratch my head and at least admit that it really made no sense to me. But, in my attempt at conforming and obeying, and not being evil, I continued for years to do the same thing that Todd is doing; and that is defending the faith, believing that my efforts were valiant and helpful to my family and other LDS faithful.

    Far too many inconsistencies and lies. Far too many apologetic responses that make absolutely no sense. Far too much happiness and joy outside in the light.

    Carl

    Like

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  20. JulieAnn says:

    Good morning all! I see we’ve had our temperatures raised slightly all around? Okay, everyone, just breathe,

    My beloved Nat and birdman. Todd can’t hear you. I can answer your question, and I don’t think Todd will argue with me one bit.

    I remember when I first went to Disneyland. I walked in and started to cry because I had been a single mother and thought that I’d never be able to bring my girls to the Magic Kingdom. Later, I remembered the smell and heat of the day. Even later than that, I remember my daughter asking me why I cried.

    They were all the same event. I wrote about it several times in my journal. Bottom line? It was a very emotional experience for me. Now toss in thinking you saw a deity.

    Human fallibility makes the three different versions almost requisite, don’t you think? I mean, believing you saw God is kind of a big deal. Different versions, not knowing that people hundreds of years later would be arguing over it, would be almost essential if one were to think critically about it. Frankly, if there weren’t different versions, I’d be even MORE suspect. Too perfect and all that.

    For everyone on this blog attempting to prove Todd wrong, I ask you this: Of what are you afraid? Are you afraid Todd is right? Of course not. At least I hope not. So what are you afraid of? Because it all screams of fear. I can accept that Todd is a believer and I can accept his attitude because quite simply, it’s where he’s at. If he came onto my blog and argued with me, I’d feel the same way. No one can make you feel inferior w/o your consent, remember.

    Todd answered the question, he just didn’t answer it the way you think he ought to have answered it. Basically, he’s saying that the versions coincide where it counts. Am I right, Todd? Correct me if I’m off, please.

    As far as why men got the priesthood instead of women, we need to remember that this is a patriarchal religion, and women and men are not treated equally, Simple. You can rail against it, you can balk, but what good does it do?

    My point? You do not need to parse concepts with Todd or anyone else. The LDS Church, from my point of view, is so full of holes and imperfections, you can leave Todd at peace to do what he wants to do. Be at peace knowing you’re following the path you chose and don’t be afraid if proof with a capital “BS” stares you straight in the face. If you are at peace with leaving the Church, you don’t need anything else.

    I only say this stuff because after reading all of these blogs and comments, I disagree that Todd comes off as a patriarchal idiot. On the contrary, I didn’t see a whole lot of temper tantrums from him at all. What I did see is his attitude of peace that he’s right. You call that smugness; I call it peace. So come from a place of peace and acceptance and compassion. If Todd is to think critically, and if you are, the dialog must begin with compassion.

    Love to you all.
    JulieAnn

    Like

  21. JulieAnn says:

    Oh, and if I come across as smug, I sincerely apologize. I’m just at peace. xoja

    Like

  22. Kent Winward says:

    As a long time lover of novels — fiction is truth — and there are a lot of different ways to tell the truth.

    As a long time attorney, no story stays the same — ever — especially the truthful ones.

    As a long time and proud member of my cultural heritage (and Todd you are slacking here), the Mormon Church has the most potentially forward thinking attitude towards women and priesthood of any religion in the Judeo-Christian patriarchal tradition. Not to give away any trade secrets, but the Mormons have ordained and continue to ordain women as priestesses on a daily basis, but I digress.

    Patriarchy is not limited to Mormon culture, read Camille Paglia or any other fun feminist writers on the Western Tradition.

    Compassion goes a long way as my wife so aptly stated. Too bad compassion doesn’t help us with the problem of theodicy, it just helps us live a more balanced life.

    Like

  23. Todd says:

    Kent, JulieAnn;

    It’s good to hear from you all again.

    Both of your posts show a level of empathy, compassion, honesty, and understanding that is refreshing (and often missing in these little pissing contests). I think you two, for the most part, get it.

    Kent – I’m not sure I follow your comment that I’m slacking as a long-time and proud member of our cultural heritage. Please do elaborate.

    Kindest Regards,
    Todd

    Like

  24. Jeff says:

    Kent, JulieAnne

    Please – both of you. I am an attorney by profession and have practiced in the San Diego area for 28 years. Although I appreciate the civility and tone that you are both trying to inject back into these discussions, your smug and arrogant treatment of issues and arguments demonstrate that you consider yourselves almost “parents” to those children arguing over the dinner table.

    And, excuse the tone here (because it is not inclusive) the “referee” role that you assume isn’t working.

    Religion needs to be backed into corners. Most people understand the evolutionary roles and contributions that organized religions have played in the evolution of mankind. But, it is time to stop the nonsense.

    By facilitating and consoling those who propagate lies, you do little more than create civil discussions with little merit.

    Expose the lies and let the cards fall where they may. The Todds of this world will never change. Who cares? We shouldn’t. But through discussions with these Todds, and exposing them for who they really are, future generations will be able to better understand the issues and choose their paths. By understanding the history of the LDS church, and exposing the truth about their origins, their past and present, we will not allow them to continue the cover-ups and lies that have been necessary for Mormon conversions in the past. This access to information is killing LDS conversion and retention rates.

    This blog site is a very good march forward. Rock on Natalie!

    Like

  25. Kent Winward says:

    Sorry, Jeff from San Diego, but I disagree (and those who have had the silliness to remain in the legal profession for 28 years don’t particularly frighten me, I’ve got 21 or 22 years under my belt myself).

    Yes, maybe I come across as a parent referring a dispute between children, but when people are acting like children. Your attitude does nothing but incite rancor and division that frankly aren’t necessary. You see I’ve known Todd and Natalie about as long as you’ve been practicing law, maybe a little longer.

    I’m not looking for a referee role, I’m looking for productive discussion. It doesn’t take any particular talent to back people into corners and bludgeon them with Internet trolliness.

    Is Todd going to listen to me or you? Todd, you asked me to explain my argument here it is: Since its inception, the Mormon church has ordained women priestesses in its temples. Why not do it in the open?

    Jeff, as an attorney, you better than anyone should know that you have to argue the law and the facts. In this case, you can argue the facts all you want, but if you don’t couch it in religious law, the religious won’t listen.

    Like

  26. Birdman says:

    K so glad you have joined the discussion…still honeymooning, so won’t interject until later. Give your pretty wife a hug for us! Bottling mead next week thought you might want to get together.

    Like

  27. JulieAnn says:

    Dear Jeff the attorney,

    One catches more flies with honey than vinegar. I think most (not all sweetheart) attorneys seem to forget this.

    I think projecting your own arrogance belies your ignorance, I do not feel better than anyone, just different. My post may have been interpreted as arrogant, but it’s you, Jeff, who did the interpreting. I’m not an attorney, just a mere mortal with the ability to see that the “Todds” of this world have every right to their world view as you do. Wow, what a concept.

    How long has religion been around? Ummmmm….shall we start with Astarte herself? Perhaps Inanna? I don’t think, that religion is going anywhere. Your self-proclaimed war on “ignorance” is made up of you, people like you and a large round room serving as an echo chamber of bitterness. You are the type of person that gives religious people something to rail against. You SOUND bitter, you FEEL bitter, you ARE bitter…..no one can hear anything you say but BITTER.

    Dialog is about giving and receiving, not who can yell the loudest. Walk tall and carry a big stick. In this case, walking tall is walking with compassion and understanding; the big stick is the facts. Ever hear of Joseph Campbell? He speaks of religion as part of human development and adheres to the belief that it has merit, even today. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Religion has it’s good points. But like Carol Lynn Pearson, it’s better to stay in the ranks and change as one of the community, rather than be an outsider holding a picket sign.

    I’m neither Mormon, nor a deist. But I believe that we aren’t as separate as many would like to think. Jeff, you adhere to your beliefs and judgments just as strongly and adamantly as a religious fanatic; you have just told yourself you are superior in your beliefs.

    peace,

    JulieAnn

    PS: Natalie, birdman, you know I love you guys. For the most part, we’re just weighing in on the discussion and trying to help it evolve from name-calling to a less emotional and more logical playing field, Or we’re just pain in the ass contrarians. You decide 🙂

    Like

  28. JulieAnn says:

    Oh Jeff–uh, YEAH! Have a great time!

    Like

  29. Todd says:

    Jeff,

    Interesting and curious perspective.

    Why would an organization (religious or not) dedicated to a fundamental search for truth and understanding (whatever it’s source) need to be backed into corners and the “nonsense” stopped? I haven’t ever been an attorney, but it seems to me that those who seek for truth (religious or not) would join that cause, rather than fight it.

    It seems to me that your negative bias towards religion is irrational and extreme, and will do little except facilitate and console those who propagate many of the anti-religion views on this blog. I could be wrong; but religion, at a minimum, provides a necessary check-and-balance of sorts against potentially destructive shifts in societal norms.

    It’s conceivable that we’ll reach a state of human enlightenment in which organized religion won’t play a vital role, but I don’t think we’re quite there just yet.

    I’m all for exposing lies and letting the cards fall where they may. Truth rocks!

    Kindest Regards,
    Todd

    Like

  30. Rick says:

    Hi Guys,

    I agree that “truth rocks.”

    I suppose along with that statement we could say “education rocks” too. It seems to me that as the educated world becomes less religious (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm), we might reasonably conclude that as the lies are being exposed, the cards are falling where they should…but I guess the religionists might hang their hats on “well, Satan is doing his job well;” and “only the elect will be saved.”

    I doubt we will ever agree on the why…but there certainly is a trend towards less “religion,” whatever the cause.

    But the next topic I take issue with is whether we humans are better off with — or without — religion. I argue without. When you take away the common “we are God’s chosen people…and we deserve this land because we are chosen,” and the wars associated with that divisive attitude, I think we will be naturally more “moral” sans religion (as we know it). I think Sam Harris says it well on this TED piece:

    I’m not completely for throwing all religion out…with some important evolution within, I see much positive in them. There’s a growing segment of Mormons that continue in activity despite disbelieving Joseph’s Myth. If that trend continues (with New Order Mormons, etc.), I think Mormonism can transition to a truth/science-based, non-magical thinking, service and social organization. I don’t see it in my lifetime however — the gerontocracy leadership system keeps progress at a molasses pace.

    But just as Seventh Day Adventists have thrived DESPITE learning of the plagiarism of their founder Ellen White, I think mormonism has the possibility to survive without Joseph — despite what iron rod mormons may white knuckle.

    But I could be wrong….

    ~Rick

    Like

  31. Isaac says:

    Just a thought for all members of the LDS church and Christians everywhere. I was raised a Mormon, went on one of their sales trips, and then finally saw the light. Do your self a favor and Google HORUS or look him up in an encyclopedia. You will see where the early Christians came up with the story of Jesus. Compare similarities. All religion is constructed of man to control the masses. Included is a link to the Horas vs Jesus info http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm.

    Like

  32. Pat says:

    I came across this blog on exmormon.org. I think its great to hear former members speak their mind. My husband and I are currently looking into leaving the LDS church. Any man (AKA Joseph Smith) who boasts himself to be better than Jesus, is most definitely a false prophet. Just putting that out there.

    Like

  33. Birdman says:

    Welcome Pat, lots here on Natalie’s blog to bring humor to desperation of many of the issues facing those of us that have left “The Church”, officially, unofficially, tossed out or left willingly…overall, this is a good open forum to share opinions and view points…now and then, we get those that are bitter and angry from both sides, just bare with it, you’ll even learn something from that view point.

    Like

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