Dear Dallin….


LDS apostle Dallin H. Oaks on Tuesday likened the post-Proposition 8 backlash against Mormons to the persecution blacks endured during the civil-rights struggle.

Wow, Dallin. All I have to say is did you wash that foot before you stuck it in your mouth, or did you get an old stinky, sweaty, old guy foot-in-mouth taste that is REALLY hard to wash away.

Little children, please go away. What I have to say next is NOT for your ears.


Sorry, but that was the word that really did justice to what I am thinking.

First of all, backlash and discrimination are NOT the same thing.

When people get angry because you are DISCRIMINATING against them, that is NOT reverse discrimination.

As the article says:

“Were four little Mormon girls blown up in the church at Sunday school? Were there burning crosses planted on local bishops’ lawns? Were people lynched and their genitals stuffed in their mouths?” asked University of Utah historian Colleen McDannell. “By comparing these two things, it diminishes the real violence that African-Americans experienced in the ’60s, when they were struggling for equal rights. There is no equivalence between the two.”

When is the last time someone looked at a MORMON and asked them to go to the back of the bus BECAUSE they were Mormon?

I don’t see two drinking fountains that are labeled Mormon and Others everywhere I go.

This, folks, is not comparable. It is deserved.

In 20 years or less, mark my words, the Mormon Church will REVERSE their stance on homosexuality, through “prophecy,” and then for the next few hundreds of years they will be left trying to spin away the REASONS they discriminated FIRST against black people, and then against homosexuals, AGAIN.

I guess they are not so worried about it because they think the END IS COMING. Well, I’ve been waiting for Jesus to come since I was a little girl, and he hasn’t even so much as peeked his head around the corner, folks.

THESE ARE THINGS you are going to have to DEFEND in 20 years. Why say them now? Why is that so hard to understand?

Ugh. I leave you with Pat Bagley’s opinion on this whole mess.



About Natalie R. Collins

Natalie has more than 30 years writing, editing, proofreading and design experience. She has written 20 books (and counting), has worked for the Sundance Film Festival, and as an investigative journalist, editor, and proofreader. She embraces her gypsy-heart and is following her new free-thinking journey through life. Follow her as she starts over and learns a bunch of life's lessons--some the hard way.
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67 Responses to Dear Dallin….

  1. Clark says:

    Yet another ugly, old Mormon apostle who deserves a kick in the head.


  2. Cele says:

    He believes every word he utters… hook, line, sinker…


  3. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    The other day on the job site I started talking to this young
    guy who just returned from his mission a couple of month’s ago.
    I asked him how it went and recieved the standard “most rewarding
    thing of his life” and “How fulfilling his calling was”. I asked him
    if he got alot of tough questions about the church. He said a few.
    Mostly about polygamy. So I asked him about Blacks being denied
    the Priesthood. He looked at me like I had lobsters coming out of
    my ears. “Blacks being denied the Priesthood?” “The Church has
    never denied the Priesthood to Blacks.” He said I had wrong info.
    That it never happened. I just told him to ask his parents or look
    it up on the internet if he didn’t believe me. Unfortunately that was
    my last day there so I don’t know if he asked someone or not.

    But that did get me to thinking about how in fifty to hundred years
    from now some ancestor of Todd’s will find some old newspaper
    articles or a couple of Ensign magazines that talk about how blacks
    were denied the Priesthood untill 1978 because of the mark of Cain.

    Here’s my prediction of what happens.

    They write a paper about what they have found. Seeing how the
    Prophet and the rest of the Church’s General Authorities are always
    looking at their doctrines and teachings on a line-by-line, precept-by
    -precept sorta way. They take Todd’s ancestor and 6 or 7 others
    and in September excommunicate them all for apostasy and spreading
    lies about the LDS Church.

    Outa site outa mind, as they say.



  4. Todd says:

    As the gap between the present and 1978 grows, any negative impact of the priesthood restriction will continue to diminish. It’s hard for me to believe that someone could live in Utah and complete their mission without even knowing about a restriction that ended only 31 yrs ago.

    Here’s my prediction, it’ll be Kelly’s posterity who will be the leaders of the LDS church doing the excommunicating of my posterity. Any remaining ancestors of both of ours will be long gone by then.

    You know what they say — what goes around, comes around.



  5. alice says:

    What’s wrong with a church that wants to excommunicate anyone instead of dealing with the facts honestly?

    When you go placing your “sins” in some ordinal scale shouldn’t honesty in your day to day dealings with your fellow man and yourself be up there with any of the things that deal in sex and sexuality?


  6. Natalie says:

    Todd, that “gap” doesn’t change the fact it happened. How do you explain that? (Please try answering this question instead of sidestepping around it.)


  7. Kirk says:

    Todd, “As the gap between the present and 1978 grows, any negative impact of the priesthood restriction will continue to diminish.”

    Once again, for the millionth time, it was not just a priesthood restriction!!! It was a ridiculous theology that categorized all people of dark skin. The “mark of a curse” continued through American Indians, Tongans, Polynesians, Peruvians, Chileans, etc. The theology and ramifications for anyone with African American blood was severely stricter. They were not allowed to participate in any priesthood blessing – including temple marriage, or any other church calling that required this special priesthood mantle. Grown Black men were not even allowed to pass the sacrament, an assignment that the majority of twelve-year-old white boys did every Sunday.

    This was taught and practiced by the Mormon Church since it’s inception. This, along with many other weird, bigoted and harmful practices and beliefs are the primary reason why the LDS church is experiencing severe growth problems with intelligent people today. I predict that it will be even more of a problem as time marches on. Much like the Zoroaster’s of old, the Mormon Church will eventually fade into obscurity.

    This is my prediction, and we are already seeing the beginnings.


  8. Todd says:


    As we’ve discussed repeatedly, I believe “it” happened for a whole host of cultural & social reasons that plagued the nation in particular, and the world generally in the 19th and early 20th centuries. To suggest that converts to the church who grew up in that culture weren’t susceptible to those forces is to defy logic.

    All I can say is thank goodness that theology has been cleared up.



  9. Rick says:

    But Todd, can you NOT see that when the prophets back then spoke, they often said in effect “thus sayeth the Lord.”

    So when we talk about what WAS said, and what WAS doctrine, we are attempting to point out that if “they” were mistaken then, can we really trust that today’s prophets are speaking for God today?

    It’s as simple as that.



  10. Susan says:

    It is a difficult thing that LDS blacks could not hold the Priesthood until long after the civil rights movement.

    However, it is rarely mentioned that Joseph Smith called for equal rights to blacks even before abolitionists did. It was one of his platforms in his run for US President to end slavery. In this way, he was far ahead of his time.


  11. Bree says:

    However, it is rarely mentioned that Joseph Smith called for equal rights to blacks even before abolitionists did. It was one of his platforms in his run for US President to end slavery. In this way, he was far ahead of his time.

    Wow, that’s the first I’ve heard of this, if this is true then why not let blacks hold the priesthood. If the so called “prophet” wanted equal rights for blacks then why would he deny them the priesthood! Where do you ppl come up with this shit!!

    Natalie, I love your blog, it makes me laugh daily! As someone who was born and raised in Utah, West Jordan to be exact, I can honestly say I have heard most every bit of shit the “Mormons” have to spew! It was very difficult being 5 years old and having another neighborhood child telling me I am going to Hell because I am not Mormon! Who the F@CK are Mormoms to say where I am going?! And this isn’t even the beginning, I have heard this crap all my life and boy does it inspire a hatred of any religion!

    When I was 7, my uncle killed himself, my Grandmother was always a mormon, attending church regularly, wearing her magic undies, until that day. Soon after his death, the bishop visited my Granmother and told her in order to “redeem” her son’s soul she would have to devote her entire life to the church! Well guess what? From that day on, I didn’t have a Grandmother because she spent every waking moment doing church work! What a joke! For them to take something like the loss of her son and make her feel that she needs to redeem his soul by doing nothing but work for them, never mind the family she had left! This is why is despise everything mormon! I think it is extremely sad that ppl are such sheep and need someone to tell them what to think, believe and how to live! I have an 18 month old daughter and I am sorry to say that the attitude here in “mormonville” will likely make her hate them as well!


  12. Michelle says:



    You, lady, are repeating the latest Mormon LIE, being passed around the web by ridiculous faithful drones who want desperately to believe their “prophet” was something other than a perverted pile of dung. This new faith promoting bullshit lie of Joseph the-child-rapist being killed for sticking up for Blacks is SICK. (Yes Susan, Joseph RAPED Helen Mar Kimball. The bastard told that child that the salvation of her entire family depended on her marrying him. She was told it was “dynastic” but soon found out she was expected to share the perv’s bed. Her exact words were, “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and he deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.” She kept diaries, Susan. Read them if you dare. And lest you try to repeat the LDS apologist lie that “girls married young back then”, I suggest you look at a damn census from the time, Susan. The average marrying age was 22, and girls didn’t even start their periods until their late teens. Society “back then” considered 14 year olds to be children even more so than now. Your precious scumbag of a charlatan made a little kid have sex with him, and you sing the bastard’s praises.) No, you didn’t say exactly that, but I keep up on the latest Mormon apologetics fudging, and that’s where you are heading with your obnoxious statement. Joseph Smith died in a gun fight, after marrying other men’s wives and raping little kids, NOT for defending Blacks, as Mormons are now trying to say. Joseph Smith saying a Black man should be believed when he claimed he stole some whiskey to get the money to buy back a slave is not even comparable to what the abolitionists did, and nobody’s impressed that he gave his phony priesthood to Elijah Abel because JS pretended to give secret super powers to anybody who’d believe his fantasies. The lie you Mormons are spreading is without merit, and you guys should be pummeled with rotten fruit and history books for keeping it alive.

    And riddle me this; how in the heck could Joseph Smith have stuck up for the equal rights of slaves before the abolitionists did? William Wilberforce took up the cause in 1787 after the formation of the Committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade. Joseph Smith wasn’t even born until 1805! You Mormons really should fact check each other’s “history”. Never mind. You’re all allergic to the facts because they contradict the fairy tales you tell one another in order to prop up your faith. It’s just wishful thinking on my part to think you’d give a crap about the truth.

    Listen Susan, Bring ’em Young took slaves to Utah. Three that we know of, named Green Flake, Hark Lay, and Oscar Crosby. And Ezra Taft Benson said that Martin Luther King was a Communist, and the Civil Rights Movement a tool of the Communist Party. Your asshole, biggoted, racist power grubbing leaders tried to stand in the way of the frigging Civil Rights Movement, Susan! And in typical holier-than-thou, asshole Mormon fashion, Oaks has the balls to compare political backlash from a fight Mormons started to the struggle of the same Blacks that Mormons tried to hold down! It’s disgusting, and so are you for defending such filth.

    Then there are my own memories, Miss Susan. I clearly recall, both before and after the ban was lifted, being told that Blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood because they were fence sitters in the imaginary pre-existence. The exact wording was ALWAYS that they were under a “curse”, and I heard it in Sunday school! Now lying Mormons would love to say I must be mistaken, but for God’s sake, I’m only in my forties, and there are plenty more of us who were alive and kicking, and Mormon, when the stinking racist practice was in place! Those of you that have remained pathetic sheeple are gutsy, I’ll give you that. It takes a lot of nerve to tell hundreds of thousands of people that they are mistaken about what was clearly a very real, taught-from-the-pulpit doctrine of the Mormon cult.

    Now Susan, since I know Mormons, and know them well, I’m sure that all you’ll get from this entire post is that I’m an angry exmo, posessed by Satan, and hell-bent on tearing down the so-called true church. Perhaps you’ll come back with the tired “they leave the church but can’t leave it alone” line. Well, I’d be a real jerk to leave it alone when people like you are running around telling horrible lies in hopes of getting idiots to contribute ten percent of their incomes to your already filthy rich, lying leaders. (That’s another doosie, right there. You people claim to have no paid clergy, yet your profit gets to live in a 3 million dollar condo, paid for by tithes, and he and his twelve partners in crime make seven figure salaries for their positions as Jesus’s supposed right hand dudes. But that’s a gripe for another time.) Thankfully, me and the other exmos (technically, I’m still a Mo, thanks to the weirdos love of claiming those who haven’t sat in the pews for ages as members) are seeing the fruits of our labors pay off in the drastically declining numbers of coverts and convert retention in the Mormon church. Not leaving it alone is definitely paying off. That you are perpetuating a lie is what should resonate with you, but I know it won’t. Cultists are funny like that, and brainwashing is a terrible thing. It’s you that has the problem for not being pissed, lady, not those of us who are rightfully angry at the constant lying and whitewashing done by LDS.

    Try not to hurt yourself with those mental gymnastics if you can avoid it, Susan.

    And Todd, I’m glad you’re fine with “the theology being cleared up”, whatever THAT means. More Mormon lunacy, as far as I can tell. Like Rick said, the practice and doctrine was backed with many thus-sayeth-the-Lords, but as usual, the Mormon god doesn’t know what they hell he thinks. Nothing has been “cleared up”, either, when your leaders refuse to make an official statement about anything, and instead rely on the guys at FAIR to muddy the waters on their behalf. If you think anything has been cleared up, you’re not paying attention.

    Natalie, I just found your blog tonight. I’ll probably be visiting it on a daily basis, as it’s quite funny. I doubt I’ll always be this irritated, though. It’s just that the combo of Mormon racism, bigotry, hypocricy, and persecution complex gets me particularly ticked, and this whole prop 8 thing is just that. Keep up the good work. What you are doing is important, and doing it with flare takes talent.


  13. Bree says:

    Michelle, wow, that was great! Sometimes you just can’t help but go off on a screaming rant about the lies! Rock on with your bad self!!!


  14. JulieAnn says:

    Todd, Todd, Todd…

    are you still pestering Natalie? Goodness.

    Still defending The Faith?

    I think that trying to change you and your paradigm is pretty futile and I’m not going to go off on my tangents because you’ve heard it before! But here are my thoughts, if I may…

    I believe that when the LDS Church’s leaders finally get the revelation that gays and lesbians (and all the in-betweeners) should be able to live their lives in peace, the membership, like the good little sheep they are, will follow suit.

    And it will happen. History has proven it.

    Equality under the law will happen in our lifetime and the Mormon Church’s antiquated morality will either shift, or they will be forced to draw a line that will alienate all of the members who have gay loved ones and/or who sympathize with the GLBT community. That’s a LOT of tithing lost, Todd.

    I watched a video today of a young man who wept because protesters were telling him that he was going to hell for loving another young man.

    This young man cried and said, “I’m a good person. How would they know anything about me? They don’t know me.”

    Truth be told, no one knows anyone’s heart but “god”, if you believe in that.

    I believe Jesus preached against judgment, but not against love.

    All this young man did was love. As I see it, he’s following in Jesus’s footsteps a lot closer than most LDS church members I know.




  15. Natalie says:

    Dear Proud,

    1. Just for the record, I have no cats. I’m not really a cat person.
    2. Three times your age? You said you’re 15? Yup.
    3. You more mature than me… Heh. I love 15, the age where everyone is stupid and you are the smartest person on the face of the earth, don’t you guys? You’ll get over it.
    4. You couldn’t be MORE wrong about Joseph Smith. He NEVER denied or revoked polygamy, or got any kind of a “prophecy” that it was wrong. Why, if that were true, how come our friend Brigham Young had so many wives, long after Joseph was dead. You need to read your Mormon history, grow up a little and then come back.

    Heh. Still chuckling over the fact you think you know it all… Heh.


  16. Natalie says:

    I was thinking about dressing up as OctoMom for Halloween, but maybe an old lady with a million cats would be a better costume… I’m embracing it! PS: I don’t want real cats. Don’t really like them. Don’t tell.


  17. Todd says:


    Yes. I’m still here stirring things up. How have you been?

    Regarding your prediction about the LDS position on SSM, time will tell. I can’t imagine society NOT embracing it, and I can’t imagine LDS theology embracing it. It’ll be interesting to watch it unfold. I expect the church to be on the front lines and prominently lambasted by the liberal media for being there. Many here will no doubt enjoy that spectacle.

    Who are we to judge another’s heart?

    It’s good to chat with you again.

    Take care,


  18. dr.cti says:

    Actually Elder Oaks did not compare the harassment of Mormons to the evils inflicted on African-Americans during the civil rights era. If you actually read what he said, you’ll find that he addressed the EFFECT of those “incidents of violence and intimidation. For the sake of your ill-informed followers, here is the actual quote:

    “In their effect they are like the well-known and widely condemned voter-intimidation of blacks in the South that produced corrective federal civil-rights legislation. “


  19. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Well here we have another Toddite who only quotes what
    he wants to hear. dr.cti said,

    (Actually Elder Oaks did not compare the harassment of Mormons to the evils inflicted on African-Americans during the civil rights era. )

    Then why in an interview with Oaks did he say “He did not consider it
    provocative to compare the treatment of Mormons in the election’s
    aftermath to that of blacks in the civil rights era”, and said he stands
    by the analogy.

    For the sake of your ill-informed statement above dr.cti I suggest you
    read and report all of what Elder Oaks said and meant. Before you come
    on here and talk down to everyone in your holier than thou tone.



  20. Susan says:


    Excuse me, but how do you even know I’m Mormon?

    How would you react if I told you I am agnostic?

    Just curious.

    I hope that you are this vehement with all other Christian sects. It would only be fair. More fair, in fact, since among Mormons you would not find radical racists like you could other folks back in the day.

    For your next rant, I suggest the Ku Klux Klan and Baptists.

    Most Christian congregations in the early days of Mormonism were utterly segegated, which the Mormons never did. Blacks were not excluded from worshiping with white people.

    The Book of Mormon, first published in 1830, which you probably believe was written by Joseph Smith, states that black and white people are equal. has opinions of black LDS members on LDS history and black people.

    That said, I do find it tragic that the majority of Mormons, along with the rest of the country, were to an extent racist. But they can’t be singled out for that fact.


  21. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Well Susan I would suggest if you want to make a point about
    the LDS Church in regards to their feelings and actions towards
    blacks. I would choose a different website other than the one
    you posted up. That site uses the term “black folks”, which is
    a fairly racist term used by white folk trying to show how they’re
    not racist. Also for every one of the quotes they throw out there
    by past Prophets and church authorities. There’s two or three
    quotes by those same guys that are really racist. But hey who
    am I to disagree with the Church in regards to their “Black Folk”



  22. Susan says:


    I’m surprised. I thought you’d enjoy the site because it was created by an ex-Mo. You guys usually tend to band together.

    But you’re right, this is a more fair depiction.


  23. Kirk says:

    To Kelly; It becomes quite obvious that you have studied Joseph Smith and Mormonism quite extensively. Although I agree with most of your assesments and criticisms of LDS history, you must certainly realize that the microscope could easily be turned just as critically on the Lutheran Church. Martin Luther, although quite obviously a genious and great German theologian, he was also an Augustinian monk, and an ecclesiastical reformer whose teachings inspired the Reformation along with inspiring many protestant traditions and theologies. He was also insane. He had “shit fights” with the devil, conversations with demons and Satan himself. His life and ideas, although novel and insightful for his time, cannot hold any more water than contemporary religious concepts.

    I find it more difficult listening to you tear into the history and theology of other religioins, while obviously believing in and defending concepts that are equally flawed and rediculous.



  24. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Kirk I think ya’ll had better recheck your info on Martin Luther.
    I have never ever heard anyone say he was insane. But you
    know what. It doesn’t matter. He’s not thought of as a Prophet
    of God, no one prays to him, he didn’t speak for God nor does
    anyone think that God spoke through him either. He was just
    a visionary man who had a gutfull of the Catholic Church and
    their beliefs of what a good christian should or shouldn’t be.
    Demons or no demons he changed western civilization by
    intiating prostestant reformation.

    Kirk I haven’t been active in church for 30+ years but I would
    be interested in what concepts that are equally flawed and
    rediculous. The last time I checked our main base for the
    Lutheran faith was Salvation isn’t something you have to
    earn. Instead it is a free gift from God through the grace of
    Jesus Christ. No hocus pockus. No Santa Clause kinda God
    who makes his list and checks it twice to see whose been
    naughty or nice. It’s just there for all. We aren’t taught that
    Lutheran’s are God’s chosen people. Other religions are wrong.
    So I’d be interested in these flawed concepts.

    Also Kirk what concepts was I defending that brought on your
    little tirade anyway. All I mentioned was what Lutherans do in
    educating their youth to except or reject membership into the



  25. Susan says:

    Speaking of racism…blunt, outspoken, and unequivocal…read Martin Luther’s opinion of Jews here:

    But that’s not important. Not to me, anyway. We can find the negative in everything. We can see history, and humans, in their degradation and hopelessness. Or…we can accept flaws yet still look for the good.

    It is so much easier, so much less work, to drag someone or an idea down, to be a naysayer, to criticize, to doubt, to nitpick, to not contribute…than it is to build up, have a positive belief in something, to work towards something.

    That is my principal problem with a site such as this. Rather than contributing to something positive, it seeks to destroy.

    Hate manifests itself ultimately in destruction.

    Think of how much easier it is to doubt your ability to work for yourself than to actually move forward and build up your own business. How much easier it is to be critical in your marriage than to consistently build your partner up. How much harder is it to choose to see strength rather than weakness in those around you.

    I want to live for the creating and building up of something, whatever that something is, rather than devote my time and talents for years against something, like this site seems to exist to do.

    Don’t like the Mormons? That is your prerogative–but profess something in its stead that has brought you the same beauty, comfort, and peace that the religion brings to its constituents–or stay silent.

    What do you believe in?


  26. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Susan ya’ll are right Martin Luther had it in for the Jews. I was
    taught that 45 years ago in church. We didn’t believe in it and
    were taught that it was wrong. But that was part of his history
    and our church didn’t deny his thoughts on the Jewish religion.
    In fact when I was in Confirmation we had a local Rabi come and
    talk to us about the Jewish faith. Hitler used his words to reinforce
    to German Lutherans his hatred toward Jews. By that time most
    accepted the fact that you take the good and bad of a person
    because of the time frame that that person lived in. The
    MAIN thing is his opinions were presented as his thoughts and
    beliefs and not those of God. All of Martin Luthers questions,
    thoughts or opinions were placed out there as papers for discussion.
    Not as the direct word of God.

    Susan you also said,

    ( Don’t like the Mormons? That is your prerogative–but profess something in its stead that has brought you the same beauty, comfort, and peace that the religion brings to its constituents–or stay silent.)

    Nothing would give me more joy, but everytime I turn around there’s
    missionaries at my door telling me I’ve got it wrong. Or I see the LDS
    Church going after gays and before that they were going after blacks.
    I post here not to change your mind or Todd’s or any other TBM. Just
    like there’s nothing about your religion that you can bring up. That will
    change my mind. But there are some who come here that are looking
    for reasons to leave the LDS church. Or to join the LDS church. It’s
    those people I want to see a record of both sides to help them make
    their choice from.

    So Susan until your church stops speaking for God I’ll be speaking
    out against your religion and all religions that claim to speak for God.

    And also for the record Susan I find it ALOT easier and more spiritual
    in my marriage to build up my partner than to be critical of her. I’m
    sorry you have to work so hard to not be critical of yours.



  27. Carl says:

    Ashamed to come out and admit that you are LDS Susan? Anyway, the point here Susan is that we are willing to let well enough alone, if we afforded the same courtesy. But, the Mormon theology is so blatantly “in your face” about it being the only true church, at the same time spouting and practicing such ridiculous beliefs, we can’t be blamed for pointing out the stupidity of Mormonism. It is a cult, plain and simple. It (and it’s members) lie about the beliefs. They have done so since it’s inception beginning with JS’s lies. Don’t want to accept this? Fine, just don’t try to explain any of it using intelligence or logic, because you can’t. And don’t lecture us about our attitudes concerning religion in general, and Mormonism in specific. This idiotic religion is fading away – and not fast enough for me.

    Good is good. Truth is truth. Love and relationships will always trump fear and guilt. Don’t think religion teaches guilt and fear? Read the bible. Read the BOM. Read the Koran.


  28. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Here we go again Susan.

    (I’m surprised. I thought you’d enjoy the site because it was created by an ex-Mo. You guys usually tend to band together.
    But you’re right, this is a more fair depiction)

    Susan I’m not an ex-mo. I’ve also been to both of those websites
    ya’ll have posted about plus a few others. The one common thread
    in all of them comes down to just what brother Todd keeps saying.
    Don’t sweat the small stuff look at the big picture. No one on the website disputes the churches teachings that the
    “mark of dark skin” or the reason we have races of people with more
    or less skin pigment is because of God handing out punnishment by
    the darkness of ones flesh. Instead they say look to God’s true
    gospel and if they are being tested by God then so be it. I also love
    all the quotes from the different Prophets and church authorities to
    prove how they really have excepted blacks into the church since
    day one.

    But you know what Susan. It’s all made up BS. Science through
    genetics has proven that the darkness of ones skin is because of
    environmental evolution as humanity spread out across the planet.
    Humanity started on the plains of Africa. All of humanity has a little
    black in us. Brigham Young just rolled over and shit his knickers in
    his grave over that little statement. Adam & Eve, Cain, Noah the
    whole damn bunch never existed. It’s just a fairytale.

    So please show me a website where black Mormons are posting
    that the mark of Cain is BS and all the white brothern have black
    blood in them in some amount or another.



  29. Kirk says:

    Hey Kelly,

    I’ve enjoyed your posts. And I agree with your position on comments from Susan, Todd and the rest.

    My comments to you were geared towards religion in general (bible, flood, mythology, metaphorical teachings confused with historicity, etc.) The flawed theology with any religion based in biblical teachings was my reference here, not a personal attack although when I read my post it does comes across a little strong.

    On a different note; have you noticed that Susan’s writings are very much like Todd’s – both in style and content. Either Todd dresses up and morphs into a counter personality as Susan (Jeckyll and Hyde stuff) or there is a female out there who writes exactly like Todd.



  30. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Kirk I also have wondered about Todsan. Only my thinking
    was along the lines of how you’d never see Janet & Micheal
    Jackson together. But the Jeckyll & Hyde thing works also.

    I can usually tell by someone’s accent if they’re from northern
    Minnesota. So I think it’s more of a religious accent that
    we’re hearing. It’s like if you take 3 bulls and feed them the
    same stuff everyday. Even though all the output from them
    laying on the ground came from 3 different bulls. It all looks
    and smells the same. But a Todsan conspiracy still has some
    room for thought.



  31. Todd says:

    Maybe you should request that Natalie validate the IP addresses for both Susan and I to assure yourselves that we’re independent writers.

    I don’t know Susan and we’re certainly not the same person.

    I’m starting to believe that anti-Mormons are genetically disposed to conspiracy theories.



  32. PMP says:

    @Todd, Naaaah, Glenn Beck has cornered the market on conspiracy theories, there’s nothing left for the rest of us.


  33. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Hold on there PMP. I started thinking about this and I
    think Kirk and I got this wrong. (Ya I know it’s hard beleive we
    could be wrong). I’m thinking instead of Todsan it’s more
    like Susod instead. Sorta a Jekyll & Jill sorta thing. Maybe ol’
    Todd got a sex change. Knowing how the Church feels about
    THOSE kinda folks. Plus seeing how Natalie knew him in
    school. Maybe Susod thinks she’ll rat him out to freinds and
    family back here. So Todd is really Susan who signs off as Todd
    because going by Susan really opens up a whole other can of

    Then again you’re right about Glen by god Beck corning the
    market on consiracy theories.



  34. Carl says:

    Me thinks we caught Susod with her / his knickers down!

    Polygamy, black/dark skin curse, funny underwear, Adam-God theory, man progressing to be Gods (or not), Lamanites; hell, almost any topic at all that comes up is explained away as “not necessarily doctrine,” by LDS apologists. They “Nibley” the thing to death. Is anyone else getting as sick of the BS as I am?

    I just spent three hours on Todd’s personal blog reading pure, unadulterated BS about the Mormon beliefs concerning why anyone with black skin wasn’t allowed to hold the priesthood for 150+ years. “It wasn’t church doctrine.” “It was actually done to protect those poor Negroes.” BULL F’N SHIT!!!

    Just say it you stupid morons!! Repeat after me. It is, and was just a bunch of BS! We were wrong! Our prophets were wrong!! Since it’s inception, our church (prophets and apostles) have been wrong on many, many subjects! There truly is no LDS doctrine. Everything we teach and believe can be changed in a moment – with no apologies. We believe in this church and don’t focus on minor details.

    Minor details my ass! These details and teaching define who we are. They define what we believe. I grew up in the church, and was taught for four decades that blacks were cursed because of their actions in the preexistence. I read it in lesson manuals, church publications, and books written by apostles. I practiced and actually believed what every Prophet taught through acceptance, that black people were cursed through a direct lineage from the pre-existence. I’m not buying the BS that Toddster spews. I recommend that everyone follow the links that he presents, and form your own opinions.

    Sick of listening to lies, spins, and half-truths. I love watching the stupid excuses and lies that Mormons come up with trying to justify stupid ignorant practices and beliefs.



  35. Todd says:


    Great post, and I think you hit the nail on the head.

    This site, and most of the anti-Mormon posters here aren’t interested in creating anything of value. Rather, they’re interested in propagating lies, innuendo, and smear. They seek for anything negative or imperfect, usually at the extreme fringes of Mormon thought, and cling to it like their salvation depended on it.

    They’re afraid to tell what they really believe, because they’re afraid to have it examined in a critical way.

    Mormonism, on the other hand, is probably the most examined religion in the world; and, though not perfect nor led by perfect people, it stands as a beacon of truth and purity in a confused and degraded world.

    I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

    Kindest Regards,


  36. azteclady says:

    “Agree with me or shut up”?

    And “anti-Mormons yadda yadda yadda yadda beacon of truth and purity yadda yadda yadda”

    Not much changes, does it?


  37. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Well Todd seeing how ya’ll are talking about a beacon of truth.
    How about answering a simple question I’ve asked you five
    times now. What does the LDS church believe and teach in regards
    to Adam & Eve? It’s a simple question that someone who has the
    faith and knowledge in the Church that say you do could answer.
    It looks like Susan has done the usual LDS thing. Post a holier than
    thou post and then leave and not stand up and defend something
    that she thinks is true and correct. I’d ask her, but then I’m quite
    sure she would be just like you. dr.cti did the same gutless thing.
    Make a post then leave and not discuss any of the BS that he posted.
    SO Todd, Susan, dr.cti, Todsan or Susod why don’t you show some guts
    and faith in your true and restored church and give me an answer.
    What does the LDS Church believe and teach about Adam & Eve.
    I’ll give you a little clue It’s either Yes we believe that Adam & Eve
    did exsist or No we believe it’s just a biblical story.



  38. JulieAnn says:

    Uh oh.

    Todd, get offa that high horse right now! You know better! :0)

    You’ve entered the hypocrite zone — watch where you tread.

    Doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo….Kent is in italics, Todd. We thought we’d take you together. He he he he.

    I do love a decadent threesome.

    I know you do, baby–Back to Todd.

    Let’s address ‘value’ first. Audience is everything when you are considering a writer’s attempt to create value. What is more valuable to dissidents? Sweetness and light or dissent? I have lots of valuable things to say, like love your neighbor, turn the other cheek and love those who despitefully use you. If I said those things on or other Mormon sites I would get shouted down, yelled at and mistreated if I said love your gay neighbor, love Democrats and health care reform. If I were to say that you should support your political leaders like Obama, Harry Reid, Barry Frank, Al Franken and Nancy Pelosi and be subject to our rulers and magistrates, what response do you think I would get? Value added? And Harry is one of your own.

    I guess I’m wondering what a couple of faith defenders are doing on an ex-Mormon blog. Is it possible that the combative nature of the people on here serves the same purpose as Fast and Testimony meeting? If you say it enough, it’s true? If you come at things from a superior stance, then everyone else seems inconsequential? I’m asking because I’d like to know. It’s akin to a Christian Scientist being on a pharmaceutical forum and telling the posters that they have no value, they are propegating lies and evil. It’s silliness. And it’s pissing in the ocean to change the tide.

    The “fringes” of Mormon belief and thought, it seems to me, are simply the tenets that Mormons want to pretend don’t exist.

    The problem is that Mormonism falls prey to the death knell of all religious traditions — fundamentalism. You start taking the metaphor literally, you look silly. The contradictions are apparent and glaring. I agree that most of what is written in the commentary on this site and others tends towards the inflammatory, but Todd, you need to show some compassion. They are feeling lied to and deceived — the very thing you say they are displaying, they experienced from your religion. Judge not, that ye be not judged. This is what I mean when I say the contradictions become glaring. By clinging to the fundamentalist reality that you are the only true church, you throw out the doctrine.

    I will be happy, Todd, respectfully (and I think I can speak for Kent on this) to take you on, logic for logic, any day. Shall we tackle talking snakes or all of the animals in the world fitting into a boat first? Perhaps we can critically examine my beliefs. I’m not afraid, Todd. Go for it. Oh, I should tell you what I believe, huh? I believe that we are all here and we are all learning. I believe that God is, for lack of any critically acclaimed proof, a figment of people’s imagination (and lack of understanding=existence of God is NOT a viable argument.) If anything, WE are the Gods. Examine that. Critically.

    Especially since that is what you profess to believe, Todd. You are the Gods, right? Or at least you can become like the Gods. The biggest problem with taking the idea of becoming God literally is that you develop a God Complex and say stupid things like, “Mormonism, on the other hand, is probably the most examined religion in the world.” Hell, Mormonism isn’t even the most examined religion in the Christian world. There are more Buddhists and Hindus than Christians. I went to my mission in a Buddhist country and that will burst your elitist bubble in about two seconds flat. Critical examination relies on fact not inflated rhetoric. On Google, 93.8 million references to “Catholic”, who Bruce R. McConkie called the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil and only 9.4 for “Mormon.” Uh, about 84 million fewer references to your allegedly “most examined” religion.

    The only beacon Mormonism shines right now is Dallin Oaks. He’s the new poster child for your faith. Bigoted, ignorant and narcisstic….in a confused and degraded world, that seems to fit, doesn’t it?

    You assert that the people here are only interested in “lies, innuendo and smear.” What exactly did your church propegate about the GLBT community? I would assert that the church, collectively, did the same thing.

    But to compare the civil rights movement in any way, shape or form to Prop 8 is beyond belief. If anything, you ought to compare yourselves to the KKK, fighting to keep the minority in chains. They *believe* that blacks are inferior; they *believe* that they are sinners based on something they cannot control. Sure they could wear make up, get chemical peels…right? They ought to stay out of sight, and consequently out of mind. Resist and overcome…BUT they don’t because they were born black. Gay people are born with the predisposition to be gay. Some people believe they are inferior; they believe they are *sinners* based on something they cannot control. Sure they could deny who they are, go against their innate natures…right? They ought to stay out of sight, and consequently out of mind. Resist and overcome….BUT they shouldn’t have to because they were BORN gay.

    I’ll conclude with a final thought on Mormonism. The appeal of Mormonism for me is that the story of Joseph Smith was a story of independent thinking and determining the truth for oneself. You study it out, you do the hard work of determining what is true and what is false and you have every ability to learn the answer for yourself. I truly believe that. I also believe that you and I have different answers to that question. It is disingenuous for you to attack people for coming up with an answer, whether it is based on historical fact or personal experience, simply because you disagree.

    Your church teaches to “ask and ye shall receive.” We asked the same question, and we received different answers. It either works or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, then it’s simple for me to say Joseph Smith got the ‘wrong’ answer and so did you. If it DOES work, then every single person who asks and receives ought to be valued, validated and honored because they followed the example of the founder of your church.

    Be well~

    K and JA


  39. Todd says:


    I believe that Adam & Eve existed.

    What do you believe?



  40. Kirk says:


    Excellent post. This is one that I will print, study and ponder.

    Thank you.


  41. alice says:

    If Adam and Eve were literal truth, we know how Cain and Abel came along. But what happened after that?

    Is that in the temple ceremony someplace or other?


  42. Carl says:


    Now that we know that Toddsan believes in Adam and Eve. We should ask him if he believes that JS was correct when he stated that the Garden of Eden was physically located near Jackson County, Missouri.


  43. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Todd’s being Todd with his answer on this one also. My
    question was what does the LDS church believe and teach
    in regards to Adam & Eve. Todd responded with “I” believe.
    Which just leads me to believe that he’s setting up one of
    his deflect it sideways and then go in the opposite direction



  44. Todd says:

    JA & K,

    It is sooooo good to have you guys back, you just don’t know.

    I’m really not into “threesomes” – especially decadent ones – but, for you, I’ll make an exeption.

    Kent, I’m glad you addressed “value” first. Mormons value freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Our country was, at least partially, founded on those valuable principles. Elder Oaks spoke eloquently about them. Mormons do value the principles of “love your neighbor,” “turn the other cheek,” and “love those who despitefully use you.” If you said those things on or other Mormon sites you wouldn’t get shouted down, yelled at, or mistreated (generally speaking). The same would apply even if you said “love your gay neighbor, Democrats, and health care reform.”

    Mormons would also agree that it is value added to support our political leaders like Obama, Reid, Frank, Franken, and Pelosi and be subject to our rulers and magistrates.

    You appear to be mistaking “love” and “support” with “acquiescence.” I can love and support others with differing viewpoints without acquiescing to their views. This “If you don’t let me have my way, you don’t love me.” theme seems to be a recurring one with you. Frankly, it’s childish logic.

    LDS leaders have repeatedly emphasized the need to speak with love and to show patience, understanding, and compassion to those with differing viewpoints. The right to believe, speak, and lawfully act without fear of reprisal should be protected.

    JulieAnn, Nobody is pretending that negative or imperfect things don’t exist at the “fringe” of Mormon thought. I readily concede that the church is an imperfect entity led by imperfect humans who are susceptible to the cultural and social conditions in which they live. That concession in no way diminishes what I believe to be a divinely instituted program.

    Kent, We both agree that most of the commentary on this site tends towards the inflammatory, so I will try to be more compassionate (admittedly not one of my MANY virtues!). As you quote: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    JulieAnn, I really don’t care about what you believe. I do care about what I believe, though; and when others attempt to tell me what I believe, I have this irresistable urge to respond. To your point about God, a lack of “critically acclaimed” proof is not a viable argument against the existence of God. To coin a phrase: Absense of proof is not proof of absense.

    Kent, Sorry to burst your “elitist” bubble, but a critical examination suggests that Buddhists and Hindus account for 20% of the worlds religious adherents, whereas Christians account for 33% (source. I also served my mission in a Buddhist country. I don’t know why the information that you also served in a Buddhist country would burst my “elitist” bubble at all, let alone in “two seconds flat.” I do admire your attempt to quantify “most examined” by the number of Google references. Proportinally speaking, the Catholic church is 100 times larger than the Mormon church, and yet there are only 10 times the number of Google references, by your count.

    JulieAnn, No one is suggesting that the scale, magnitude, and horror is comparable between the efforts to suppress expression within civil rights movement and what happened to Mormons in the wake of Prop 8; but the effect on the freedom of expression are irrefutably in the same category.

    Kent, JulieAnn; The “ask and ye shall receive” appeal of Mormonism is the same for me. I’m okay with others getting different answers or no answer at all; let them worship who, where, or what they may (or not). It’s way beyond my ability to determine who gets what.

    Kindest Regards,


  45. Todd says:


    What is the difference in your mind between “I believe” and “the LDS church believes and teaches?”

    To me it’s just more Kellyite deflection from those things that really matter: patience, tolerance, good will, love, understanding, etc.



  46. Jess says:

    Just a comment to Michelle, the current mormon prophet doesn’t live in the 3 million dollar condo, he lives in his home that he’s owned for years and paid for during his professional career.


  47. Bree says:

    Wow, I just FB’d something I probably shouldn’t have but I couldn’t help it, I’ve been reading your blog and comments one by one and I stole one of your quotes for my “stauts”, ““I know you want to think that people are inspired by your devotion and faith, but they really aren’t. If you’re a good person, they are inspired by that.T hey really don’t care that you wear special underwear. That, mostly, creeps them out.” “Natalie R. Collins”

    You say everything I’ve wanted to for years, you are truly an inspiration!!! I can’t wait to read one of your books!!


  48. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Todd says,

    (What is the difference in your mind between “I believe” and “the LDS church believes and teaches?”)

    In my mind there shouldn’t be. So It’s the Old Testament version
    of God created Adam and then created Eve out of one of Adams ribs.
    The whole garden of Eden thing. Then all of humanity started with
    them. Then Cain, Able all the rest.



  49. alice says:


    Would you mind explaining how “all the rest” happened? I mean, Eve was the only one with estrogen and a uterus, no?


  50. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    You’ll have to ask Todd that question. Adam & Eve is
    a total fairytale to me. Science has proven that.
    I was never taught A & E was true in my church. So there
    are religions out there that have a more realistic approach
    to the Old Testament.



  51. Susan says:

    People have wondered why I just left a post and never returned.

    The answer is because I prefer to hang out in slightly more supportive environments, not ones that are looking to rip apart my every word.

    Even science does not exist merely to destroy theories of the past. Instead, it looks to move forward and have answers better than the ones before. While I do not believe science and religion are incompatible, I do believe that man-discovered science can never provide all of the answers for our existence. Science is a consistent series through time of proving what people previously believed is actually wrong.

    And you can never get the scientists to agree, anyway.

    I have been traveling the world for a year. I have lived in Muslim countries; in Eastern Orthodox countries; and in Catholic and agnostic-dominated countries. I hope to live in Asia to learn more about Hindu and Buddhist cultures next year. I am fascinated by all things religious.

    All things spiritual touch and amaze me.

    I would never dream of making a blog to point out the foolishness of being a Hindu. It would be easy, I suppose; they pray to all those strange gods. I guess I could make posts with pictures: Look at this god with the many arms. It’s so stupid! Can you believe people actually worship this?

    But I would never do that. The reason is because I feel that to disrespect the beliefs of others is cruel. To disagree with others’ beliefs is expected; to mock? To rip apart? Totally not necessary.

    Which is why I’m not planning on contributing much more to this particular blog. Todd, good luck 😉

    Bless all of you. Christ lives and is the Savior of the world. Through His blood we are saved.


  52. Carl says:

    Todd’s alter ego has just signed off.

    Now, he can take off his panties, put back on his pants and stop the ridiculous Toddsan nonsense.

    Nobody was buying it anyway.


  53. Natalie says:

    Hey Carl,

    How’s it going? I just have to say that while Todd sometimes confuses, confounds, and perplexes me, I have never ONCE thought he was Susan. Maybe it’s a friend of Todd’s, but it’s not him. I have seen pictures of him in Mexico, which is where “Susan” posts from, so it’s maybe sketchy, or maybe not. But it isn’t Todd.

    Truth is? I think Todd knows I am right. And is desperately trying to dig himself out of denial. Good luck, Todd.


  54. Natalie says:

    Oh, and by the way, Susan: if you “think” for one my minute my blog is about proving Mormonism ridiculous, then you weren’t reading even ONE of my past posts. It isn’t about Mormonism at all. It’s about me. How sad that you can’t see that. Good luck in your journey, although with your blinders on, not sure how you are going to “see” anything.


  55. Kent says:


    Not to quibble, I was trying to make a couple of points, which you managed to skirt, so I’ll clarify:

    1. Ex-mormons do not have a corner on the market on being judgmental and one-sided. This was what I was saying in regards to a large percentage of the Mormon reaction to all things homosexual and Democrat (See Glen Beck, Cleon Skousen, etc.). I’d refer you to any recent book by Cass Sunstein on the deliberative process and how it tends to promote erroneous “group think.” This is a problem that I see in both the Mormon and ex-Mormon communities. The human tendency is that we hear only what we want to hear and ignore the conflicting evidence. We meet in like minded groups and create echo chambers that lead to erroneous group thought. Thus, Susan bails out because she doesn’t want to hear conflicting thought. Kudos for you for sticking around.

    2. Fundamentalism. I noticed you’ve completely avoided every attempt to address fundamentalism in my post. Kelly, albeit in dramatic fashion, is trying to get you to address whether or not you are fundamentalist in your beliefs by demanding to know if you believe in a literal “Adam and Eve.” You skirt the issue by saying “I believe Adam and Eve existed.” Well I believe that at some point in the evolutionary process there was a first man and woman as well and for lack of a better term, we can call them Adam and Eve. This doesn’t answer the question of whether you take the religion literally. Much of Mormon dogma demands a fundamentalist answer, i.e. there will be a literal resurrection of the body and the spirit, and the demands of the religious culture are such that you must admit fundamentalist beliefs to be in good standing — and profess to be honest. It is a tough gig.

    3. is actually a nice example of “group think” doing its worst. The Christians latch on to it and say, look, we are the biggest. No mention is made of the fact that 1.3 billion Chinese have been forced by their government to deny religious belief and are uncomfortable answering any religious surveys due to government crackdowns, yet in the Christian category, if you look at it carefully it includes “nominal” Christians (For the dictionary challenged, that means Christians in name only.) But it is on the Internets, so it must be true.

    4. I thought “most examined” meant most as in quantity, not proportionality. Maybe you are right, Mormonism tends to be a tempest in the teapot.

    4. Finally, you wrote in your original post, “They’re afraid to tell what they really believe, because they’re afraid to have it examined in a critical way.” After telling you what I believe and asking you to examine it in a critical way, you responded with “It’s way beyond my ability to determine who gets what.”

    I believe that it is within the ability of each individual and society to continually strive towards greater light and truth. The methodology is in fact critical examination, but don’t bail out when there is a contradiction. Development stops when you stop trying to reconcile the conflicts. I understand where you are coming from. I’ve been there. I also know where I am and I know why we have different answers. (See how easy it is to play the Mormon game — I know my Church is true.) To quote, Joseph Smith, “By proving contraries, truth is made manifest.”


  56. Kelly says:

    Hi All,

    Well Susan isn’t LDS. Her last post she ended with “through his
    blood we are saved” Staunch members of the LDS Church would
    never ever say that. It’s too bad Susan ended up being just a drive
    by poster here. There’s some questions I’d love to ask her.



  57. Shane says:

    ugh in the history of the “Mormon” religion they/we have been persecuted and HATED just as badly as any slave has been. Look up the REAL history, I mean it was completely legal to KILL a Mormon in the state of Missouri up until 1976…

    Anyways, I guarantee you that the “Mormon” church will NOT receive any sort of revelation about accepting gays. Being GAY and being BLACK is a bit different don’t you think?

    Awesome blog, not sure why you have the title “Trapped by the Mormons”

    I’ve also never really been sure why ANYONE goes this far out of their way to HATE on a religion? Why does it matter? If the Mormons are wrong in their beliefs what does it REALLY matter? Instead I think you need to go through all of this JUST to help try and CONVINCE yourself that the “Mormons” are wrong so that you can feel better about yourself and your own life choices.


  58. JulieAnn says:

    Shane, you are an ignorant softball and it’s not worth the effort for me to hit you and your vapid comment out of the park. Go sit down, shut the hell up and color.


  59. Rodger says:

    First off, I want to state that I am a friend of JulieAnn and Kent. Following a link in one of JulieAnn’s blogs, I found my way here, read the thread and felt compelled, or something along that line, to post myself.

    Shane, ditto to JulieAnn’s response to your October 27th post. And I would ad that it matters because the Mormons have for quite some time declared that everyone else in the world has inaccurate, if not false religion and no true authority. That might rile people up a tad and the rest of the world is entitled to challenge and refute such tripe. If it doesn’t really matter, why are you posting on a site like this? I mean, couldn’t you easily surmise before you ever read the blog here that it would be negative to your view? When you so righteously state, “Instead I think you need to go through all of this JUST to help try and CONVINCE yourself that the “Mormons” are wrong so that you can feel better about yourself and your own life choices”, can’t the same honestly be turned back on you? Very weak logic, very weak cognition here. Nuff said.

    Susan, going back to your 10/21/ post I couldn’t help but notice an onion of contextual contradictions. I also find your analogies of building your own business and working on your relationship in a positive way to be off point and irrelevant to the point. In other words, not very applicable analogies. Your accusation that the expressions made by others here is hateful is contextual for you. I would venture, it doesn’t seem hateful to them. By coming here and participating you entered a zone that you knew would not be much in agreement with your interpretation of Mormonism. So why did you read and why did you post? When those who have issues with the claims of Mormonism consider the church’s claim that, “all other religions are false and don’t have the true authority”, would it not be quite easy to sense that as hateful? Really, I think that is a pretty negative approach. The onion you are wrapped in makes sense to you and it is easy to stay in that context and simply say that those who disagree are being hateful, but it is view with little scope and almost zero connection to reality as we experience it.

    Susan, I want to take up your challenge, the one at the end where you said, “Don’t like the Mormons? That is your prerogative–but profess something in its stead that has brought you the same beauty, comfort, and peace that the religion brings to its constituents–or stay silent. What do you believe in?”

    This is really easy for me Susan. In a word, Zen. Beliefs, doctrines, commandments, judgment and dogma never did bring me beauty, peace or comfort as a Mormon. I can say this honestly. The simplicity of Zen and the insights about the self and the connection of everything experienced through Zen like practice did. Now, I’m not saying that means everyone should be Buddhist or try Zen. I don’t use the Buddhist label for myself. It is an injunction and one among many in the mystical traditions that people use as a tool to discover something about self and consciousness. So, since I answered this question can I continue and not “stay silent”

    As far as what I believe in, well… I’m really careful about this trap. I prefer to stay as open as possible and not close any door of discovery by inserting a belief that is not necessary. I think I believe in skepticism, not as a negative, tear the world down tool, but as the gateway to authentic spiritual growth. So does M. Scott Peck. I recall in his book the, “The Road Less Traveled” which I read many years ago, Scott said something very profound. So profound I never forgot it. He said, “The God that comes before skepticism often bears little resemblance to the one that comes after”. Wow! Holy Wow! For me personally, this matched my real experience. Spirituality had no authentic resonance for me until I became a skeptic… so I guess I do believe in that. Did I pass the exam? Is it ok if I don’t stay silent? One more comment Susan. From what you said in your last post, I would guess you don’t really understand science as a method or grasp it’s contributions at all. I won’t elaborate now.

    Reading JulieAnn and Kent’s joint post evoked a myriad of thoughts and mental comments, but the one most prominent is about a very interesting documentary program I saw on PBS a year or more ago. It was called, “The Bible Unearthed”. I recommend it to all as something to ponder. It dovetails into a lot of Kent and JulieAnn’s arguments regarding fundamental religion, metaphor and literal interpretations. It’s available online at Amazon and through Netflix on DVD. It’s a truly compelling examination utilizing the latest in archaeology findings in the Levant. The conclusions are that startling regarding the founding of Judaism and it follows that there are serious ramifications for Christianity and Islam as well. It demonstrates quite convincingly that most of the Old Testament was written and made up (meaning fiction) several hundred years after it claims to have been. Slavery in Egypt, wandering for forty years in the land of Canaan, the ages of the Kings all made up to create a legacy and a tradition for the Jewish people. It even ventures a compelling hypothesis for where these people came from and when they actually showed up on the scene in Palestine.

    If the above scholarship proves valid as more is discovered, well… so much for the origins of western organized religion. It’s a house of cards.

    I applaud Kent’s observation when he says, “I’ll conclude with a final thought on Mormonism. The appeal of Mormonism for me is that the story of Joseph Smith was a story of independent thinking and determining the truth for oneself. You study it out, you do the hard work of determining what is true and what is false and you have every ability to learn the answer for yourself. I truly believe that. I also believe that you and I have different answers to that question. It is disingenuous for you to attack people for coming up with an answer, whether it is based on historical fact or personal experience, simply because you disagree.”

    This is what the eastern schools of mysticism might call and injunction. In other words, “try this and see what happens, then we can compare notes.” It is an injunction of “go for the direct experience yourself”. I think Smith used the injunction with a twist, one that had deceptive motives in the end, even for good old Joe. But if Mormonism had gone the path of open inquiry rather than dogmatic pronouncement it might have evolved into a truly meaningful tradition of conscious spiritual discovery. But it didn’t and it isn’t.

    My sense is that most of the world’s organized religions might have had beginnings that were authentically injunctive in approach, but beyond the hands of the founding mystics they almost always turned mythical, exoteric, dogmatic and dead.


  60. Rick says:

    Thanks Rodger. I see the world’s religions evolving to teach doctrines of “stories.” IOW, because science is rapidly disproving the historicity of scripture, the stories within can be used to teach positive traits — unconditional love, forgiveness (mostly of self), service, the Golden Rule (my proclaimed “religion”).

    Yes, many have a good ways to go, but it is inevitable. As Christian theologian Marcus Borg says, “The Bible is true, and some of it happened.”



  61. Rodger says:

    Rick, Interesting insights. I like your religion of the Golden Rule. It has been the premise of ethical ideal behind many spiritual beginnings, going back a long way before Christianity.

    So, doctrines of stories. Kind of sounds like ethics 101. What does Borg really mean/intend by “The Bible is true” piece?



  62. Rick says:

    I went to a presentation of Borg’s a few years ago here in Salt Lake City. His talk was fascinating to me. He has certainly been around the religion block — a former high level minister, and then studied a few Eastern religions for years. He has written quite a few books outlining his ideas of where religion )eastern and western) is going.

    I think what he is saying in the phrase above is that there are many lessons we can learn from in the Bible; how to love one another, get past our judgmentalism, respect our differences, etc. — as there is in most accepted scripture in other traditions. A story doesn’t have to be historical to have an impact. Many eastern religions have evolved to this paradigm. They often tell stories that have a message that is impactful, but it doesn’t matter if it really happened.

    I think he is one “master” who is helping us transition to this attitude here in the west…and it is a positive change, IMO.



  63. The Deuce! says:


    It’s easy. She got this website because she needs to EAT. Natalie is smart. She thought “hmm… let me see… what is the only thing I know how to do well… EUREKA!!! I HATE MORMONS. I can write stupid books about it and sell them. Also I can start a blog and people will click my ads for places to buy temple garments and to meet mormon singles… My life is secured!!! Thanks to the people I hate!!! YAY!!!

    How sad. If mormonism went away, what the hell will you do for a living NATALIE?


  64. Carl says:

    Mormonism is a lie! This needs to be said very simply. A big fat lie to make people think they feel better. It doesn’t work. It is a lie.

    Grow the hell up Mormons!! No more justificaitons, excuses about stupid things your prophets said (and say). They lie. You all lie.

    Stop it!!!


  65. The Deuce! says:

    And what you gonna do about it Carl? Scream?, stomp?, protest?, get mad?, weave sticks at them? whatever…
    You say it doesn’t work. Well my friend with more than 150 years and billions of dollars, I doubt it doesn’t work.
    They are not gonna go away. Not anyone here in this blog is making a tiny dent on mormonism. Nothing you can say will make any difference. Research, history, documents, Natalie’s books, anything. Besides this blog’s real intention is to make money, not to rise awareness of “THE BIG LIE”.

    Anyway, lie or not, you will be rotting in your tomb for decades and they will be still singing their hymns. How sad. Let’s go bark at the moon…


  66. Carl says:


    Scream? Stomp? Protest? Get mad? Bark at the Moon?

    Listen; There are other religious institutions that haven’t been around nearly as long as the Mormons that are growing much faster. And, there are others that not only are growing much faster worldwide – but are also have attained a larger number of adherents in a shorter time period. There are others that are much richer. There are others that give more to charity. Still others whose members are more dedicated, and are able to maintain a much higher retention rate with church attendance and activity. One religious group has nearly 1.6 billion members and growing so much faster than Mormons it is scary. Do these numbers and longevity make them closer to God than Mormonism? Please……..!

    Deuce, your statistics and logic don’t make sense. Anyone with a brain can figure out how futile it might seem to try to stem religious tide. As you say, “Let’s go bark at the moon.”

    No Deuce- Let’s do something worthwhile like teaching and living truth. As long as there are people who believe as you seem to; that speaking up is futile, then the tide will never change. But, I believe it will. We are seeing glimmers of truth as Mormonism is fading. Yes Deuce. With only around 3 million “temple active” Mormons in the entire world, (and the numbers shrink percentage wise each year now) thank truth that our children’s children won’t be burdened nearly as greatly by religious stupidity as they are today.

    Baby steps. Necessary steps.


  67. flug says:

    “to the persecution blacks endured during the civil-rights struggle.”

    That’s pretty funny.

    In reality, it’s more like the persecution WHITES endured during the civil-rights struggle . . .

    (To be more specific, it’s like those whites who wanted to continue the various racist policies and who ended up getting some–in some cases, pretty severe–social disapproval from others who didn’t like their racism. That can indeed be kinda nasty but it really doesn’t hold a candle to being a downtrodden minority group whose human rights are taken away by law and whose lower status isn’t just a matter of some social disapproval but is actually enforced by the government.)


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