Sorry, my guitar licks, via written symbols, are sorely lacking. Wayne is DETERMINED for one and all to hear his point, as he has referred us to his long, winding, run-on-sentence-filled diatribe yet again. So here, today, in Wayne’s World, I will give him his fiddy cents. Or 15 minutes, whichever comes first.
Hypocrisy on display—
[This was previously posted in regards to the section about Mitt Romney. I think it applies to this subject as well. (With some editing and many additions)]
I thought it interesting that someone would comment on the Book of Mormon and then refer the readers to the so-called “excellent” article about the fallacies of the Book of Mormon written by the owner of another website, Richard Packham.
I am assuming that Natalie herself, and most of the participants on her website, are of the “Christian” persuasion. If that’s the case, I am wondering why anyone of the Christian persuasion would use him (Richard Packam) as someone that could be trusted on any subject concerning any kind of a belief in God.
Out of curiosity, I clicked on his name just to see what he had to say about the “Mormons”. What I found was kind of interesting. He is a devout Atheist. He even writes “why he is not a Christian any more” articles, and even has a long list of Bible contradictions. Don’t believe me, see for yourself. See what a so-called, self-proclaimed expert can do with the sacred beliefs of Christians. Then compare his techniques with the techniques that are being used against Mormonism.
Some seem so anxious to break out their ”Big Guns” of fault finding, and demonstrate their “intellectuality”, in regards to the “History” of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Just “partially” for fun, let me demonstrate just how easy it can be done:
I know some people don’t like to “put the Bible on trial.” And, if it is quoted or talked about, they call it an “attack on God’s final and infallible and forever word.” But let me take that chance and see what you think.
First off, let me suggest that you go to the local library, and check out a book by a Biblical scholar of your choice (one that you have a lot of trust and faith in) and research the History of the Bible. Learn not only who put it together, but how it came about. Learn about the process of translating thoughts from one language to another, and the difficulties of getting the same message, or meaning, of a certain scripture when the translation is complete. As you are aware, there are a lot of people retranslating the Bible, because they apparently seem to think the King James Version has some problems in it. Learn about other faiths that have additional scriptures in their Bibles, and other Christian faiths, that have chosen to leave them out. You know how important it is to some, that Mormons have “added” to “Gods word.”
I listen to the Bible on cassette as I drive, and suggest that you do the same. Start from the very first page (or cassette/CD). Go all the way through (word for word), (Old and New Testaments), and see what is in them. I know some people just like to go to the references in the scriptures that refer them to other scriptures that back up the same point. But this time, just read the whole book from the beginning (Genesis) to the end (Revelation). If you do, I really don’t think you will be so quick with your “trigger finger in regards to the LDS faith.
Let me further make my point by using some (tongue in cheek) comments. Some of it is said in “jest” just to demonstrate what can be done if a person should “shift” his mind into the faultfinding mode, (although some of it is factual). It is also done with the thought in mind of how some people in the “shift’ mode, go to the LDS Church history to find some evidence or problem with the doctrine (or leaders) of the Church to prove it unworthy of believing in it. It is also done with the idea in mind that the “Bible is your Church History.” It is a record of the beginning of your Christian beliefs. It is the history of the Jesus you believe in as Lord and Savior. It is a record of the early leaders “and Prophets” that you believe in and trust, and their writings you go to (hopefully), to reinforce your belief in God and His Son Jesus Christ. It is your book of God’s instructions of how he wants you to live your life so you can change your attitudes and lifestyles to be what He wants you to be.
Now: If I were to “shift” (or allow someone to shift) my mind into the faultfinding mode in regard to what you believe, and if, I used your test of “perfection, without tolerance,” I would go to the Bible and read all of the things that the “so called” prophets were guilty of doing. Things like; running around in public naked like David (see Micah 1:8). Getting drunk like Noah (see Gen 9:21). And another getting drunk, and then having sex with his two daughters and getting them pregnant like Lot (see Gen 19:30-38).
And then, I would read a few false prophecies like the one Jonah made, when he said God told him to go to Nineveh (see Jonah 1:1-2), and tell them that “Nineveh shall be overthrown.”(See Jonah 3:4). Guess what? It didn’t happen. Even Jonah was “mad” at God (see Jonah 4:1, 9), which is a big “NO, NO.” Why was he mad a God? Because God apparently “changed his mind,” (see Jonah 3:10), and made Jonah look like a fool, (maybe even a “false prophet.”)
I know you have already read your own material and you know all about these things.
How about talking donkeys? (See Numbers 22:28) Let’s ask the prophet Balaam about that one. Or better yet, let’s ask the witnesses that were there (see Numbers 22:22), maybe they will tell us what really happened. I might even question the good relationship between your God and Lucifer, when they got together and made a deal concerning Job (see Job 1:6-12). Even God’s sons were there to witness what took place on that occasion (see Job1:6). I might even stumble across another little incident by the prophet Elisha in 2 kings 2:22. No, better not read about that one. And, I definitely wouldn’t want to read what God told a prophet to use for fuel to bake his bread. (See Ezekiel 4:12)
Then, as I read, I would come across the little, and of course, unimportant, incident that took place in Gen. 34, that seems to implicate a prophet of God:
Let me paraphrase: The son of a leader of another country, raped one of Jacob’s daughters. Jacob and his sons (needless to say) were a little upset about it. The leader of that country and his son were sorry for what had taken place and ask Jacob and his sons for forgiveness. They even offered gifts for their “grace.” Anything Jacob would ask, they would give. The sons of Jacob told them: “If you will become as us, and be circumcised, we will forgive you.” I would read on and find out what Jacob’s sons did after they had made Hamor, and his son Shechem, feel forgiven. And this was done even after Hamor and Schechem went back to their city and had, all the males in their group, do the same (be circumcised), to prove that they were sincere. And, just maybe, I would have a hard time trying to convince myself that Jacob didn’t, in some way, have something to do with what his sons did. Especially so, when I read on and found out that Jacob seemed a little more concerned about his own “skin” than was his concerns as to what had taken place. And then, I might even take note as to how they were trading their daughters back and forth as if they (the daughters) were cattle. I just might have a flash come to my mind and compare another incident in “Mormon Church history,” the Mountain Meadows Massacre and Brigham Young, to the rest of Jacob’s story. And then I just might go back and read what the Savior said about the “mote and the beam.”
Oh yea, I know you could give me a bunch of answers about these subjects, but that is not part of the process in discussing “religious” matters, is it? You will say that I have twisted the information, or “you are just looking for the bad.” OK, I concede, I’m guilty.
I just don’t think I could belong to a group that believes in those kinds of leaders. I just couldn’t follow leaders that would do those kinds of things. But, only if I used “your test”!!! Keep in mind that we are reading in Christian “Church history” (the Old Testament).
And then I would go to the New Testament, (more “Christian Church history”) and read stories of “your Jesus” and the irresponsible things that He did. Things like; casting evil spirits into some poor man’s pigs, so that they would run off a cliff into the ocean (see Mark 5:13). And then another time when He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to fast and pray to His Father (see Luke 4:1), for forty days. Guess who shows up to answer His prayers? (See Luke 4:2)
I could go on with a lot more, but I won’t. There are a lot of reasons for not believing in your brand of religion. And I just know, I could discourage a few believers by going out and holding up a banner encouraging them to go to a web-site with all kinds of negative information designed to discourage them. Just like the ones you and others have, in regard to the Church and Joseph Smith. Another interesting thing is: I have never found any indication or even a hint in the Bible or any place else, that anyone had “apologized” to anyone for what they did, or what their ancestors did.
There is a difference between you and me. I can except the weaknesses in the Prophets of God and still believe that they were inspired by Him, and talked to Him (face to face, like Moses). And for some reason I can’t explain, is, that God works through weak humans, (I think you would call them sinners), and calls them Prophets, to get His message to His children (you and me), as He says in Amos 3: 7.
You can’t do that. Prophets have to be “perfect” in every way for you, or you can’t believe in them, especially LDS Prophets.
Other things comes to mind that your people did to the “Mormons” even before the MMM.
Click on your search and read about the Hauns Mill Massacre. Let me help you find one:
http://www.web-books.com/Classics/YoungFolks/Church/YoungFolks_ChurchC21P1.htm There was even a young child shot “point blank” and killed. His young brother had his whole hip blown away by (possibly) one of your own Christian ancestors.
Read other reports about what the early “mobs” (some of them “Christians”) did, and how they burned the early saint’s homes, and drove the members of the Church out of their warm homes in the middle of winter without even coats or shoes.
Let’s talk about the rapes of our women, and murders of helpless old men, women and children. One sick old man was slashed to death with a sickle, (a long bent knife used to cut corn). The person who committed that crime was heard bragging about it later in a saloon.
Shall we talk about how some of the “mob” (possibly some of your ancestors or former Christians) took turns raping one young woman to death on a bench, while they forced her husband to watch?
How many died crossing the plains trying to get away from people with attitudes like yours.
These are but a few of the hundreds………
Things have gone wrong on both sides of the issues. But, as yet, I only hear one side demanding an apology for an incident that “the big bad Mormons” did.
I have yet to hear an apology for those crimes (afore mentioned), by your ancestors, or from your former or present leaders.
It is interesting to me too, that having listened to a lot of preachers on Christian radio and television: I have never once heard them talk about those incidents. And if they did, they could always come up with some kind of excuse or softening reason for it taking place. Could they be hiding something from their followers? I am convinced that the Old Testament should be rated ‘X’ or at the least ‘PG’ for the things that are in it.
I am convinced that those who are professing to be Christians, and that are so adamant in criticizing the Mormons have never read their own Bible. If they had, they wouldn’t be so judgmental about Mormonism. I am not going to quote any specific scriptures, because I think the basic theme, and one of the main points, that the Savior taught, was on the subject of “Hypocrisy”.
I know many of you are going to want to make some kind of an explanation of why I am way off base on some of the things I have said. But let me say this: “My mind is made up” and “no matter what you say or how much evidence or intellectual information you have to refute my comments: It will make no difference. That is of no use. Because my mind is blocked and there is no room for any kind of explanation or excuses.” Does that Sound Familiar???
Just one more thing: This is part of an e-mail sent to me by a friend. With a little effort, you may be able to go to the original article and see the photograph for your self. As a member of the “Mormon” faith, it is quite encouraging.
Editor’s Note: We wish to thank Jeff Brooks for bringing this very
interesting discovery article to our attention. The long debated
question about bound metal records existing in the Middle East 2500
years ago as claimed by the Book of Mormon can now be put to rest.
Critics should take note and check that item off their list of
objections to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
Copyright © 1999-2002 Ancient America Foundation. This message may be forwarded with identifying information. For more information or to subscribe or unsubscribe to AAF Notes or utilize the AAF order form, visit http://www.ancientamerica.org and click “Contact us”. Refer, by e-mail, comments or questions to firstname.lastname@example.org
Unique book goes on display
The world’s oldest multiple-page book – in the lost Etruscan language – has gone on display in Bulgaria’s National History Museum in Sofia.
It contains six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse-rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers.
The book dates back to 600BC
The small manuscript, which is more than two-and-a-half millennia old, was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb uncovered during digging for a canal along the Strouma river in south-western Bulgaria.
It has now been donated to the museum by its finder, on condition of anonymity.
Reports say the unidentified donor is now 87 years old and lives in Macedonia.
The authenticity of the book has been confirmed by two experts in Sofia and London, museum director Bojidar Dimitrov said quoted by AFP.
The six sheets are believed to be the oldest comprehensive work involving multiple pages, said Elka Penkova, who heads the museum’s archaeological department.
There are around 30 similar pages known in the world, Ms Penkova said, “but they are not linked together in a book”.
The Etruscans – one of Europe’s most mysterious ancient peoples – are believed to have migrated from Lydia, in modern western Turkey, settling in northern and central Italy nearly 3,000 years ago.
They were wiped out by the conquering Romans in the fourth century BC, leaving few written records.
World’s Oldest Book Found – and It’s on Gold Plates
From BBC News, 26 May, 2003, we learn that the world’s oldest multiple-page book in the lost Etruscan language was recently found in Bulgaria. It contains six bound sheets of 24 carat gold. And the book dates to when? About 600BC.
Just a little reminder: the idea of writing on a book of gold plates may have been laughable in 1830, when no one had heard of such a thing, but it wasn’t laughable in Nephi’s time!
I’ve read it six times, folks, and it never gets less meandering. If you can wrap your mind around Wayne’s post, please take a minute to explain it to me. However, I can tell you that this is written by a man GRASPING at straws. You found examples of a “golden book” so that means that Joseph Smith was NOT A con man, because somewhere in the universe, someone used GOLD to write a BOOK? That’s pretty thin, baby.
Grasp away, Wayne.
Wayne’s world, Wayne’s world, Wayne’s world….