I think I’ve used this heading before, but, “You scare me” is something I’ve heard before. Our old friend Wayne finds all the Trappees very frightening. Consider his comment, below.
Natalie 25July2007
I don’t spend much time here anymore because I know how you all feel about the Church. I also know it is a waste of time trying to be (what’s the word), cordial? Because when everyone finds you’re a member of the Church it automatically sends up the red flag and everyone goes into the attack mode. You write all the horror stories about how the members of Church have contaminated your doorbells and walkways. I read all of the ideas that many of you have about how to keep the horrible, creepy, weird, and over zealous Bishops, Missionaries, Relief Society and home teachers away from you. Some of your ideas are kind of interesting and, should I say “Very Christ like”? Personally I don’t think any of you know who He is or anything about Him, let alone any of his teachings. The suggestions of running around naked, using fowl language, posting signs and even letting your dogs go on the missionaries are interesting comments and suggest an attitude that is very Un-Christ-like. I wonder how long it will be before one or some of you get to the point of taking it out on the members of the Church with a weapon or burning their house down, or maybe even rape or whatever. As for you Natalie: If some thing should happen like that, I think God will hold you partially responsible for egging it on. As far as I am concerned you are all sick in the head, and frankly, you scare me.
Wayne, I disagree. I’ve always been cordial to you. Just because I don’t AGREE with you does not mean I am being rude. I was cordial to “my” bishop, too. Honest, but cordial.
Now you, on the other hand, are being downright NASTY. We are all “sick in the head?” Hey, I’m not the one that believes that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri (have you BEEN THERE????) or that “Lamanites” are descendants of Jews, despite the abundant DNA evidence that disproves this.
I also have never espoused polygamy, OR defended it. Matter of fact, I would consider myself an ardent FOE of polygamy, and the horrible damage done to women and children in the name of religion. I also do not defend patriarchy, not because I believe men are bad, but because I find it harmful to MEN, women and children.
I do not believe that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with his HEAD stuck in a hat, but you do. At least, if you are a FAITHFUL MORMON you do. I also don’t believe that God was Adam, and Adam was God, but Brigham Young sure did.
I could go on and on here. But I won’t.
Who is sick in the head? I wish you well, quite frankly. If you are happy and content in your belief system, then more power to you. But I don’t believe, they won’t leave me alone, and I am forced to address it EVERY SINGLE DAY.
What you have listened to here is discontent among the masses of those who WISH TO BE LEFT ALONE.
And those, like azteclady, WHO cannot BELIEVE the lengths to which Mormons will go to retain members. Only CULTS behave in this manner. I’m sorry, but it’s true.
If anyone is SICK IN THE HEAD, it is the person who believes it is all right to walk up to someone who has said, “I do not believe,” and confront them! As I told the bishop, “I do not come to your house and confront your beliefs. I have NEVER knocked on your door and asked for your children to come to MY church. I would not do this.”
So why am I to regard Mormons as different? Why do you get to live by different rules? Why do YOU get to come on to MY blog, and call all former and ex-Mormons SICK IN THE HEAD? Just because we are TIRED of being harassed, and of having our wishes dismissed, because YOU don’t believe we KNOW what is right for us. I am 44-freaking-years-old. I can DECIDE for myself what is right. JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATED THE BOOK OF MORMON WITH HIS HEAD STUCK IN A HAT. Are you REALLY going to try to convince me that he was NOT A CON MAN? HEAD! STUCK! IN! HAT!!!!
Would you please consider what you are saying here? Sick in the head? Who is REALLY sick? I live by reason and knowledge, and common sense. I make mistakes. I acknowledge said mistakes. Sometimes, I don’t know the complete situation, and I end up having to apologize. Sometimes, I do stupid things, and live to regret them. But I never stand up and say, “I KNOW THIS THING IS TRUE, BECAUSE MY BOSOM IS BURNING.”
That, people, is heartburn. There is medication for that.
The day I start the Church of Natalie you can accuse me of leading people astray. But I have never espoused to have THE ONLY TRUE THING. For that reason alone, Wayne, your attack is unwarranted and uncalled for. I am sure that you are a perfectly nice man, and a believing Mormon. But you are allowing your Mormon blinders to affect your ability to see reason and logic. I don’t WANT you to abandon your faith.
I DO want you to understand that others do and will, and that they HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS YOU.
It’s that simple. This doesn’t scare me at all.
As for you Natalie: If some thing should happen like that, I think God will hold you partially responsible for egging it on. As far as I am concerned you are all sick in the head, and frankly, you scare me.
I have NEVER advocated violence against ANYONE. I have also NEVER COME to your doorstep, or the doorstep of ANY Mormon and tried to force MY beliefs on you or them. EVER. Can you say the same? Who is REALLY in the wrong here? Think long and hard.
I do not understand how you cannot see that it is the MORMONS who are in the wrong here! Yes, these people are writing about going to some pretty extensive lengths to have their PERSONAL RIGHTS RESPECTED, because they NEVER ARE!!
And this was just plain funny.
The suggestions of running around naked, using fowl language, posting signs and even letting your dogs go on the missionaries are interesting comments and suggest an attitude that is very Un-Christ-like.
Does using “fowl” language involve squawks and chirps? A FOWL is a bird, baby. And why would posting signs be “un-Christ-like?” Hmmm? My dog would probably just lick the missionaries, like he does everything else. Including his, uh, well, you know. Frankly, how any of this leads to violence is BEYOND me. Have you ever even LAUGHED in your life, Wayne? NOT ONE COMMENT advocated any kind of violence. Yet, you wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before one or some of you get to the point of taking it out on the members of the Church with a weapon or burning their house down, or maybe even rape or whatever.
Yes, of course, we are getting together tonight and planning to rape and pillage in the Mormon community, because it is SO VERY important to us to get our point across with violence.
Wayne, you have missed a lot during your time visiting here, and one of the most important things you have missed is that WE REALLY JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE to believe the way we believe.
JUST LIKE YOU. How sad for you that you cannot comprehend that. And you are now locking your daughters in their bedrooms in fear that I am headed over to your house to rape them.
Never raped anyone in my life. Didn’t even come close. Don’t have the EQUIPMENT for one thing, and I also have daughters of my own, and I protect them just like you.
Stop making ridiculous assumptions. No one is forming a mob. I do not work that way, nor do the Trappees. WE do, however, have to release frustration and sometimes that includes humor and slightly irreverent suggestions.
Get over yourself. You used to scare people. Today, we laugh. You believe in silly things. We do respect your right to believe in said silly things. We do NOT respect your right to try to force them on us.
End of story.
Writer in a Bubble 
I am non violent, beyond killing the occasional computer, and would never advocate harm to another’s person or property as a way to win a war of beliefs.
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And to think how peaceful it could be, if we (the general we, as in HUMANITY) didn’t go out of our way to “save” our neighbors by forcing our beliefs down their throats!
(Why am I thinking Spanish Inquisition now?)
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As Monty Python used to say…”No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!” Or the Mormon one, or the Jehovah Witness one, or the Baptist one, or the Episcopalian one… (oops, they let gays be ministers, never mind)…..and no, I am not Episcopalian. Just proud of ’em.
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*chuckle* Yes, Renee, no one expects SI
Natalie, you are a far better person than I am–I can’t accept that someone spewing such accusations to people, simply because they dare not believe as he does, can be a nice man. Narrow minded, judgmental, and some other choice expressions I’m leaving out in the interest of civility o(r a semblance thereof, from my corner).
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Ok, I have to go a little off topic here for a moment. Is it the church’s current position that Joseph Smith stuck his head in a hat to translate. Has any other person been witness to the golden plates? I remember when I was younger and taking the lessons that there was a filmstrip with a rendition of Joseph Smith sitting at a desk or table with the plates in front of him. Did anyone else see this filmstrip? I don’t remember a hat being involved, but they didn’t exactly bring up the blood atonement either.
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We are told by our parents to not follow the crowd, think for yourself, you don’t have to do what everyone else is doing. But when it comes to religion you are just supposed to except and not question it, because if you do the spirit will be taken from you. Heaven forbid we actually use our brains and just ask WHY and when there is not even a logical answer for that think that it is a little weird.
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You know what scares me? People who assume (as Wayne seems to) that anyone who disagrees with them automatically wishes to do them or their belongings physical harm. I disagree with a lot of people, but I’ve never harmed any of them, never even thought about harming any of them, and don’t wish harm on them in any way.
Unless wishing that they’d calm down and take a breath constitutes “doing harm”.
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The comments made by: “JulieAnn Says: July 23rd, 2007 at 7:28 am” where probably what this Wayne was upset about. Maybe?
Mormons have being ridiculed and persecuted in different ways throughout all their history -even today they are critised for just going to church instead of some football games or not drinking alcohol and more.
But as a tbm myself, I recognize that the church has ongoing problems with both the way missionary work is done and with the way it treats its inactive members or those who don’t want to practice the religion anymore. I recognize it because it causes more problems for us, the rank and file priesthood holder, than it does you.
Believe me, if there was anything I could do to change this I would, but the twelve/1st presidency doesn’t listen to us really. All I’ve being able to do is add an anotation to the membership record under the address section with: ‘Do Not Contact’ because we can actually add it there (can’t do it to where name is) but there’s no guarentee that the next 20something year old bishop won’t have it all removed.
Maybe a combined petetion by ex-members could help in making the church change this -the name removal bit.
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By the way this bit:
“I do stupid things, and live to regret them. But I never stand up and say, “I KNOW THIS THING IS TRUE, BECAUSE MY BOSOM IS BURNING.”
That, people, is heartburn. There is medication for that.”
…is way off!
It’s not heartburn love nor just a burning bosom (even if publicly its being described that way)
The Holy Ghost bit is much more than a ‘burning bosom’ but no-one can be forced to ‘feel’ that -you either feel it or you don’t.
This spiritual experience is much more that heartburn -which I have frequently and settle with Mylanta!
And Kc: just for the record, you ARE supposed to use your brain, logic, reasoning whatever, in reaching a decision and then ask God if YOUR decision is correct. He never decide for you, hence Natalie et all can leave the church because of their own decisions.
Actually the Natalie’s et all of this world are probably the proof that the Mormon church isn’t a cult. They can actually leave and join another church if so desire.
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Thanks for responding to this Natalie. I was very disturbed by the comments and by the implication that just because I disagree with the LDS church, some of its methods or encourage people to be HONEST and get their names removed if they are not actively mormon that I am advocating violence.
I have been on exmormon list serves and websites for many, many years now (since 2000) and have yet to hear any former mormons advocate violence of any kind. I have many friends and family members who remain mormon and the thought that I would want to harm them in any way sickens and saddens me.
Just like Elaine points out, I disagree with a lot of things that have nothing to do with religion, that doesn’t mean I advocate any harm towards them.
Johnny – to your point, while the majority of LDS can leave uneventfully and have their names removed with minimal effort, for whatever reason some people (like Natalie) are not able to. This process needs to be revisited by LDS leadership and because there are many people who are harassed or given the run around in the process is a sign that the Utah LDS church has some of the characteristics of a cult.
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Hello from TN. Thanks for the great post. Everything you said was absolutely true. It amazes me that these brainwashed geeks can accept this cult as true and be so damn self righteous about it. Wayne/John what in the hell are you doing at this web site? Aren’t you supposed to be doing something more faith promoting such as reading the fabrication you call the book of mormon or baking cookies for your neighbor that doesn’t even want to see your face much less eat that shit food. Keep your brainwashed tentacles out of our business and us fact/truth seeking ex-cult folks won’t come knockin’ on your doors aka respect your privacy.
Natalie, Keep speaking the truth and give them hell! I am sure this joke had to clean out his garmies after you blasted him out of the water.
Thanks for sharing your message.
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Sistah Nat,
With your family deeply ingrained in the MOMO religion you know you’re never going to get off the list. There is always going to be some “well meaning” family member that will express concern/pressure where needed to keep you forever in the loop.
Heck, I’d do it just for kicks!
Yurbruthafrumanuthamutha,
T.B.
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Well said, Natalie.
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I actually go into a defense mode, and not an attack mode when confronted by packs of Mormon zealots. It appears to me that Mormonism is just a manifestation of “The Big Lie” ideology. The big lie works by a power monger telling a big lie to separate out a group of adherents. The people in the center of this group of adherents then use the Big Lie in an effort to ascend to wealth and power.
People on the outside need to defend themselves from the big lie.
Wayne is right that the Big Lie at the very heart of Mormonism can lead to violence. In most cases it is the adherents to the big lie that really start the violence rolling and who usually do the most harm.
The methodology of using a big lie to divide and conquer a society leads to a fractured and often violent society.
Mormons use the same damn techniques in their grub for power that has been used by power mongers throughout the ages to Balkanize societies in the grub for poweer.
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Natalie, you do such a great job replying to people like Wayne. I admire your diplomacy. You are a good example of diplomacy for me, because as an INTJ I can tend to be very blunt. You come across as actually a very tolerant person with a great sense of humor. You reply rationally and calmly. I think people like Wayne are indoctrinated to view disagreements as attacks. It’s that whole “if you aren’t for us or with us, you’re against us” mentality. Like I’ve said before, people are indoctrinated to believe the church can do no wrong. It’s crazy that people in this supposed modern age of enlightenment let themselves be so mentally controlled.
For the guy who asked the question about the filmstrips. Yes, I remember seeing those filmstrips as a child/teen that had Joseph Smith sitting at a desk with the gold plates right in front of him. But according to all the journal entries of the people who were there during the “translation”, the gold plates were usually not even in the same room, and Joseph used the “peep stone” in his hat, the same way he had used it to supposedly get visions about buried treasure during his treasure digging career.
No one else besides Joseph actually saw the alleged gold plates. A couple of people held something heavy that was covered by cloths/a bag, but they only had Joseph’s word that the plates were within the cloths/bag. The 11 witnesses to the gold plates only saw angels and the plates in a group vision, which were not uncommon for religious minded folks of various religions back then. Group hysteria, is I think what it’s called. It also may have been chemically induced.
When Joseph wrote up their accounts for them to sign which made the visions sound like they had physically seen and handled the plates – several of the witnesses expressed discomfort with the misleading text, but signed under pressure. This is documented in these people’e journals. Grant Palmer’s book has several of these documented references.
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um.. hello…. he went waaaay out into left field.
my dogs didn’t hurt those poor wasicu boys…. just scared them. how is this violent and how will it lead to rape? if he wants to talk about rape… i’ll tell him a thing or two about it.. starting with those fellow mormons he feels so strongly are “innocent” give me his email.. i’d like to discuss this wiht him.
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Johnny,
it is not my responsibility if Wayne is insulted by my comments or if he is completely humor-challenged. Not one of my silly suggestions advocates violence unless, of course, he knows I make a MEAN hibatchi chicken. In case you are as humor-challenegd as Wayne, let me follow that up with “That was a JOKE, son.”
Mormons have been ‘ridiculed and persecuted’? It seems to me that Mormons wear their ‘persecution’ like a mantle of honor and prestige because they feel it somehow legitimizes their beliefs because they have been ‘martyred’. Let me put something into perspective for you: it’s estimated that over 500,000 women, children and a very small percentage of men (VERY small) were killed for heresy because they practiced their beliefs and it was contrary to the Catholic church. These people were pagan and practised a peaceful, earth-based religion that is thousands of years older than Christianity (the myth of Jesus is actually a stolen myth of the sun god being born to a virgin to bring ‘light’ back into the world.) Ring any bells?
People to this day practice paganism, and in Utah, do you think you can get a job wearing a pentacle? Do you even KNOW what a pentacle is? No, it isn’t a demonic symbol as Hollywood would have you believe. So please spare me the ‘persecution’ stuff, because everyone has had their day in the mass grave; Mormons are not special. Maybe some isolated incidents occur today, but try being a pagan in Utah or the bible belt, and you’ll see what it means to be ‘ridiculed’. For that matter, try being an atheist.
Again, I believe Natalie was joking in reference to the ‘burning in the bosom’ being heartburn. She knows exactly what you mean by the ‘Holy Ghost’. If the Church is true, then everyone would feel that confirmation. EVERY PERSON would experience that burning truth that it’s true. But not everyone does, and it isn’t because they are ‘hard-hearted’ or ‘stiff necked’; it’s because they haven’t had the conditioning to have a psychological response to certain stimulii. You teach a kid from the time they are little that something is absolutely true, they are going to have all sorts of confirmations because it fits with their conditioning.
People come here on this blog to vent, and it’s people like Wayne who confirm everything we believe to be true about your church: it’s filled with many people who are closed-minded, myopic zealots. You notice I said ‘many people’, not all, and I didn’t include you in that either. For the most part, you seem pretty even-keeled.
That is all.
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Dear JulieAnn,
I wasn’t going to answer anymore in this string but this statement:
“If the Church is true, then everyone would feel that confirmation”
really forces me post something. That is that you are way off on this belief. The church could be true but not everyone would feel that or it could be false and not everyone would feel that either! Faith and belief are extremely subjective and non-scientific.
Fact is that the church loses more of those ‘conditioned’ kids that it keeps. If it wasn’t for the converts there wouldn’t be a church by now. And I get your jokes but also you need to admit that Mormons are more persecuted than other religions -probably our own fault too. Joseph polygamy, 14 year old wives, and the bank stuff up etc, and today all the pushy missionaries or home teachers and smiling neighbors you see in Big Love.
Like I said before, if there was anything I could do to change this (the pushy missionaries and the problems in name removal) I certainly would do so. But I really think that you guys have a better chance to change those things.
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Whoa, Johnny. Sorry, but that was fun. But I am kind of amazed here, because you seem intelligent, but intelligence with blinders. You said…
“but also you need to admit that Mormons are more persecuted than other religions -probably our own fault too.”
I’m sure you learned history in school, delve in to history more. Mormonism is only two hundred years old. The Jewish have been persecuted for millenniums. Puritans left England for the new world because of hundreds of years of persecution because of their faith. American indians have been persecuted for three hundred years in this country for two reasons, they are indian, they have a different religion. Pagans have been persecuted by Christians for millenniums. And I sure if you look through out the span of our history (humans here on earth) you will see groups who have been persecuted for their religious belief far more than Mormons can even imagine.
While it’s not right, persecution of those who are and believe different than the majority is a human error, one that continues on through the tomorrows. But the reason that many is rebuked by the vast majority of people falls to many levels, not just that they are different. The beginning story is suspect and riddled with enough holes you can drive a convoy through them all. Mormons believed in polygamy at the beginning and will practice polygamy at the end. Mormons cut out those who believe different than them (there is no one world with Mormons everyone must drink the coolaid to belong), and Mormons are so darn pushy that if you’re not a Mormon they will pound on your door, stop you in the streets, hunt you down, and drive you crazy in the bizarre thought that you might become one. And if you don’t, they will wait until you died and baptise you into the cult. I’m sure the Pope liked that. Not.
I have no problem with Mormons as an individual, I’m sure I could have some very interesting conversations with both you and Wayne too that were not religion (and probably no political) based. It isn’t you, it is the religion.
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Johnny said, “you need to admit that Mormons are more persecuted than other religions”
Yikes!!!
As Cele said, you seem like a civil and mostly reasonable person, but dear me! That’s a pretty narrow view of history, Johnny, and a certain willing blindness to what’s going on around the globe as we type in this here blog. Look beyond the borders, Johnny, and you’ll see true prosecution–the kind that costs people, entire families, their lives.
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Wow, great comments all.
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Yikes!!! OK just typo:
Should be:
“you need to admit that Mormons are more persecuted than [most] other religions [today]”
OK, how’s that? (but I do think that it’s mostly our own fault! the pushy missionaries and so on…..I wish they worked some other way to find converts, like tv adds only and visit on invitation only? don’t know)
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The thing is, with the whole baptism for the dead thing, why does the Church have missionaries at ALL??? Just get names of people and watch the obituaries. Ah, right, I just realized that dead people can’t pay salaries, er, tithing.
My bad.
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Johnny, I’m sorry, but I still disagree with you. I cannot equate the popular perception of Mormons in the US with persecution, when I only have to read the news to see *true* religious and ethnic persecution. The kind that gets called “genocide” by History.
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I wondered how long it would take for you to address “fowl” language. HAHA. You go girl!
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Pingback: Trapped by the Mormons » Blog Archive » Salon.com Article, THE MORMONS ARE COMING
I’ve been reading about the Mountain Meadow Massacre in southern Utah. There seems to be conflicting stories on this. Did Brigham Young plan this Massacre? Why were these innocent men, women and children killed and why were the Indians blamed?
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One thing that no one mentioned here…Wayne tried to say that it would be natalie’s fault if some violent anti mormon reaction were to occur because this is her website, but he is the one that first metnioned the possiblity – and agave a few examples “burnings,,,even rape” – well wouldnt he then be the one responsiblefor such behavior since it was his idea?
if you follow his logic that is…and I dont. I’m a “never-mo” and have beenreadingextensively about mormon history theolgy culture, and fro mwhat I’ve read it is the early mormons themselves that instigated the violent situations that they subsequently fled from (illinios, missiouri, etc) ….that my friends is not persectution.
please forgive my typos and evidently my space bar is just plain broken,,,what can I say?
thanks natalie for providing the forum for some very interesting discussions. It is in understanding one another that we are able to remove the barriers and someday hopefully lead to a more peaceful world.
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