Would you like your hate with a side order of superiority?

In the news recently there has been a call against the evangelists who put the anti-Mormon DVD on doors throughout Utah. The DVD that told Mormons how WRONG they were–lovingly, of course–and how they need to “get right with God.”

Apparently, the Anti-Defamation League is now stepping in calling this DVD “Mormon bashing.”

Bill Straus, ADL Arizona Regional Director, observed: “This is the same kind of plain, old-fashioned Mormon-bashing that Jim Robertson and his group have been spewing for over a quarter-of-a-century. The only difference is that back then, it was the film, ‘The God Makers,’ and today it’s the DVD, ‘Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith.’ It was wrong then, and it’s wrong now.”

Is he right? Well, sorta. Here’s the thing. MORMONS have been doing this for years. The “we have the only true thing” is not something that the Evangelical Christians have a copyright on. While it ISN’T okay for the ECs to do it, NEITHER is it okay for the Mormons to do it! And do it they have been for years. It wouldn’t take much research to find Mormon video upon Mormon video that ENFORCES their stance they have THE ONLY TRUE GOSPEL. And they are willing to LIE to get you to accept it. So why are the actions of the EC group–handing out the DVD–any different from what Mormons do? Mormons go door to door, after all, in pairs, telling the world that they have “the only true religion.”

My opinion? I think they are BOTH wrong. I haven’t seen the DVD, but I’m sure I’ve heard all the claims before, and while I believe it is most likely factual, it loses credibility when it sinks into the “I’m right and you’re wrong” phase.

I don’t really understand ANYONE who claims they have the only true thing, and the rest of the world better line up and kiss their feet, because BY GOD they have the only true thing. It seems that much of organized religion ends up that way. It’s sad. (The “By God” was intentional.)

Is it hate? Of course. Or maybe just fear.

The ECs are no different from the Mormons, and both sides are of the “I’m right and you’re wrong” camp.

Maybe if they BOTH stepped back and said, “Well, I would like to respect your belief, and hope you find happiness with it,” things would be okay. That won’t happen. Because they are BOTH based on absolutes, even though absolutes are, for the most part, ridiculous.

I would like to think that ex-Mormons, non-Mormons and Mormons could find a similar place, a place where they say “Hey, your religion is interesting. Mine’s a bit different,” and leave it at that. But that won’t happen, because of THOSE SAME ABSOLUTES. They ALL BELIEVE THEY ARE RIGHT.

Bottom line: Is the DVD a hate DVD? No. Straus, you should look a little deeper into the tactics of Mormons, and their beliefs. You should talk to my youngest daughter, who recently fell prey to the “I’m right and you’re wrong” belief system of Mormons, in a very difficult way. Even someone you think is your close friend can suddenly pull the “moral superiority” card out, and bitchslap you with it.

Truthfully, the Mormons have a lot more in common with the Evangelical Christians than either side would care to admit.

I see the Mormon side a lot. I see the hate, disguised as love, veiled with contempt, loaded with moral superiority. For example, this missive from our new friend, Adam.

You guys should really get a life!! Honestly, is this what you guys spend your whole day doing? Bashing Religion and putting down peoples faith? The truth is that religion no matter what faith or denomination is a very good thing and gives people hope and happiness. It is people like all of you that cause this world so many unnecessary problems and spite between others. It is people like you that make racism and hatred exist within us. If all you have time to do is put down anothers beliefs and religion then I feel very sorry for you, it must be a horrible life for you. Its really too bad that you can’t be doing something more productive to make this world a little bit of a better place to live in.

Adam? First of all, you are spewing your own hatred, and don’t seem to realize it.

Second, please reconsider this:

The truth is that religion no matter what faith or denomination is a very good thing and gives people hope and happiness.

Hmm. Below, I give examples that prove this statement patently false.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_jones.htm
Jim Jones. Cyanide Koolaid. Guns. Sex. Mass death. Need I say more? Just read.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html
Ah, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. Can you smell the burning flesh?

Mountain Meadows Massacre, anyone?

Look, Adam. You are so wrong, it’s SCARY how wrong you are. As long as you are claiming to have the ONLY TRUE THING, the danger exists. You hate this site, because it exposes the truth. It exposes Mormonism, warts and all. Is Mormonism the ONLY religion with warts? Nope. Suspect you can find them on every single one of them.

Religion is the most dangerous energy source known to humankind. The moment a person (or government or religion or organization) is convinced that God is either ordering or sanctioning a cause or project, anything goes. The history, worldwide, of religion-fueled hate, killing, and oppression is staggering. —Eugene Peterson (from the introduction to the book of Amos in the Bible paraphrase The Message)

Take a step back, Adam, and examine your own hypocrisy. You are mad because I say I don’t believe it’s true, and write about it. And yet… Your religion does the same. Not only that, but your religion sends out MISSIONARIES by the droves, going door to door, trying to convince people that THEY ARE RIGHT and THE REST OF THE WORLD IS WRONG. They make videos. They film commercials. YOUR RELIGION is all about spreading “THEIR TRUTH,” but what I believe, “my truth,” is an offense?

I find YOUR TRUTH an offense. Too bad your mind is not open enough to see how incredibly un-Christlike your actions really all.

I have a life, Adam, and one I love dearly. Unfortunately, it is one lived out among the Mormons, and since my view is different, you get to hear it. It doesn’t make it wrong. It makes it DIFFERENT. What is so scary about DIFFERENT? Why are you so threatened, because I don’t believe, and am willing to admit it openly?

Daily I see the effect of mind-numbing, moral superiority and guess what? I DON’T have to accept it.

If you don’t like what I say, don’t read it. Wow, what a novel concept.

Hate comes in all shapes and sizes. Take a look at what you are wearing…

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About Natalie R. Collins

Natalie has more than 30 years writing, editing, proofreading and design experience. She has written 20 books (and counting), has worked for the Sundance Film Festival, and as an investigative journalist, editor, and proofreader. She embraces her gypsy-heart and is following her new free-thinking journey through life. Follow her as she starts over and learns a bunch of life's lessons--some the hard way.
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24 Responses to Would you like your hate with a side order of superiority?

  1. Allen says:

    A father of fifty years has two boys, 15 and 12, that lives with their mother. One day the mother devises a plan, with the help of a male counterpart, to tresspass, attack the father, and taking(it can’t be kidnapping) the children.
    Now the father had legal rights to the children durring this planned altercation. The mother and her counterpart were not invited, but the counterpart carried out his part and attacked the father. While the counterpart put both hands around the neck of the father, the children cried.
    Those cries didn’t stop the mother from taking the boys from their father, those cries didn’t stop the counterpart from trying to squeeze every last breath of air out of those boys father.
    That counterpart is now those boys stepfather. Those boys now have a halfsister and they all attend the local Mormon church that the counterpart attended with his prior family of thrity years.
    You can slice it and dice it any way you chose, to justify or unjustify hatered, but that father would of have NEVER done such an act.
    Allen

    Like

  2. Formless says:

    Wow, this site is awesome. I read only a couple posts so far, but I will definately bookmark it for later.

    I guess I should tell you how I found it. I was watching an episode of South Park with a friend of mine about Mormons, and I couldn’t believe that the stuff that they were saying about the Mormon beliefs was true so I ended up spending the last 3 hours reading up on Mormonism.

    I’m obviously not, nor have I ever been a Mormon, but I have been a Christian and a Muslim, I don’t believe in anything now, but I still have to put up with people every day that want to try to get me to “go back to god”.

    I’m sure I can’t possibly imagine everything you have been through, but I can understand what it’s like to be treated as an outsider for not believing in a certain relihigon anymore.

    Oh and everybody thinks that it is their personal duty to convert me, while at the same time saying tha only god can make me believe. Especially my mother in law. I hear that crap almost every day.

    I’ve studied both the Bible and the Qur’An thoroughly, but ironically that is what lead me to stop believing in god. Yet everybody and their mother believes that there is something that they can still say that will convince me that god exists.

    Anyway, I dont’t know if you believe in god or not, so I should probably stop there ,since I don’t want to offend anybody, but either way, I’m sure we have at least a little in common.

    I look forward to reading more.

    Like

  3. Del says:

    Natalie,

    I don’t know if you remember from some of my replies to you in the past but, after I officially left the mormon church I went through a “Christians are better than Mormons/Christians are absolutely right and Mormons are absolutely wrong” stage. I have now given that up with the realization that it is impossibly absurd to think in those kinds of absolutes (wouldn’t that make me a God or something if I really knew I was right? he he).

    Also, I agree with your comment that “Truthfully, the Mormons have a lot more in common with the Evangelical Christians (EC) than either side would care to admit.” What I have found is that most ECs really don’t know much about core mormon beliefs and vice versa. What’s more, many ECs and Mormons really could care less what the other side thinks/believes but really get a kick out of condemning the other.

    This is too bad.

    I appreciate your insights – they make me think and stuff.
    Thanks a bunch,
    Del

    Like

  4. Michelle says:

    I am what Mormons think of as an EC, but I don’t personally view myself that way. I never knew Mormons lumped all Christians together in this one EC term and it was so strange a concept when I moved to Utah. I was very offended at the way the DVD was distributed and I was not involved with the bombing, but I did go online to view the DVD and I found it rather informational versus confrontational. I don’t see where the offense was – it was very well done. I realize it is hard to hear what was said in the DVD, from the Mormon standpoint, but I think that is mostly because there is so little questioning of the faith. Great blog! Thanks.

    Like

  5. Jason says:

    I’m Mormon, so I am probably a little biased on this issue. I don’t see Mormons going after other faiths, and trying to prove them wrong. I’ve been a member for about 13 years, I’ve never seen this. I went to BYU, served a mission etc. I have heard random snippy comments from people about particular religions being false, that is stupid etc. I’ve neve seen an organized movement trying to disprove another religion within mormonism, it just doesn’t happen. I see the Evangelicals doing it all the time, and mormonism is a major target.

    I think the approach that evengelicals take is very different than what mormons do. Mormons do repeatedly claim to be the one true church though, I agree with that. But who doesn’t claim that, at least implicitly? I mean if you are a catholic or a baptist you have to believe that you are a member of the one true church, right? If you didn’t believe that you would change churches, stop attending church, etc. I don’t understand why this offends people.

    Anyways, mormon bashing (and honestly I don’t live in Utah, so I am not familiar if this really qualifies as mormon bashing) has been around for a long long time. I am all for constructive dialogue and inquiry about religion, but this doesn’t sound like it fits this category.

    And yes mormons question their faith all the time, this site and all the other ones like it are proof of that. The old anti-mormon line that mormons are just a bunch of unquestioning, uneducated idiots is old and lame. Mormons run the larges private university in the U.S. I have a lot of LDS friends who went on to graduate school, did Phds in the science area. It just isn’t true.

    And if you don’t like living among Mormons then leave. Why do you stay if you don’t like it? You make no sense.

    Like

  6. Allen says:

    Jason, there is a lot I would like to commit on in your reply, however the subject is about …”hate with a side order of superiority.”
    I would like to list what I noticed you wrote:

    #1 “I’m Mormon”
    #2 “I don’t see Mormons going after other faiths and trying to prove them wrong”
    #3 “I’ve never seen an organized movement trying to disprove another religion
    within Mormonism, it just doesn’t happen”
    #4 “Mormons do repeatedly claim to be the one true church though, I agree with
    that”
    #5 “…Mormon bashing…has been around for a long long time”
    #6 “And if you don’t like living among Mormons then leave”

    Jason, I’ve learned not to cram my views down somebodies throat, so I’ll share my experiences with you.
    I don’t understand #1, why do you (or anybody else) label their selves. I believe I was created in the image of God, I am who I am because of the love God has for me – I’m not superior. To me that fuels hatered.

    When I believe that I am created in the image of God, then my faith is in God.
    The above first reply to this subject is mine, so I have to disagree with you on #2.
    When you attack me, you attack my faith, the faith of God that created me, in his image.

    #3, you put “organized movement”, “religion”, and “Mormonism” in the same sentence. I would ask you to clarify this?

    #4, shouts SUPERIORITY. To me it defines the things you mentioned in #3 and would have to include the history. I myself accept the free gift that Jesus offers and build on a “relationship” which includes humbleness.

    #5, are you hurt or angry about Mormons being bashed or neither? I believe Jesus was bashed. He was bashed because those that bashed him believed that they were superior to Him.

    #6, and SUPERIORITY. Jason you don’t solve problems by announcing to the world that it’s my way or no way. That’s the same action that my boys mother took. As I said then, I would have NEVER done such an act.

    I’ve learned about “free will”. God applies it when your heart speaks louder than all the rules or actions one performs.

    Like

  7. Jason says:

    Well, I’m not sure where to start. I’ll try to answer all of this in order, at least it will be comprehensive.

    I don’t understand #1, why do you (or anybody else) label their selves. I believe I was created in the image of God, I am who I am because of the love God has for me – I’m not superior. To me that fuels hatered.

    When did I say I was superior? I label myself because I am trying to be honest and expose my bias. This website would do well to follow suit. It is set up to bash Mormons. It’s not real complicated. I said in my post that I am biased on this.

    When I believe that I am created in the image of God, then my faith is in God.
    The above first reply to this subject is mine, so I have to disagree with you on #2.
    When you attack me, you attack my faith, the faith of God that created me, in his image.

    When did I attack your faith? I’m totally lost, are you reading another post? I don’t get it.

    #3, you put “organized movement”, “religion”, and “Mormonism” in the same sentence. I would ask you to clarify this?

    Sure, I can explain. There will always be people on the fringes of every religion, or movement, or whatever you may call a particular set of beliefs. And sure they may say and do unusual things, but they in no way represent the religion at large. I’ve seen a few LDS people go on rants about a particular religion, but you don’t hear this type of thing at church or from anyone in authority. I know, I know, someone is bound to pull a quote from 1830 where someone in authority said something bad about another church, and I would say that those are personal views.

    On the other hand, I see Evangelicals (and to be perfectly honest, I am using this term VERY loosely, because I don’t know the difference between all of the non-catholic, non-protestant groups) organizing and bashing Mormonism. I’ve seen this on several occasions, I’ve talked to people who have attended classes at a church where the topic of the class is why Mormonism is false. I’ve seen organized groups led by pastors distributing pamphlets at temple openings (very disrespectful by the way, this definitely crosses the line). I don’t ever see Mormons doing similar things to Evangelicals or other Christians.

    #4, shouts SUPERIORITY. To me it defines the things you mentioned in #3 and would have to include the history. I myself accept the free gift that Jesus offers and build on a “relationship” which includes humbleness.

    I think you are misunderstanding my English. What I am saying is that I agree with the author’s assertion that the LDS church proclaims itself to be the “one true church”. Nothing more than that. Don’t you believe that your set of beliefs are the one true set of beliefs? You may not come out and say this so explicitly, but you must believe this. And I do not take issue with your belief that you are on the right path, or however you would characterize your beliefs.

    #5, are you hurt or angry about Mormons being bashed or neither? I believe Jesus was bashed. He was bashed because those that bashed him believed that they were superior to Him.

    I’ll repeat again that I am not hurt or angry about Mormons being bashed. I think it is really lame, that’s all. Most of the bashing that occurs never really gets to the heart of why people believe in different things, and it seems to be a total waste of time. The bashing ususally only makes people mad, and it doesn’t persuade anyone to change views. And yes I defintiely agree with you that Jesus was bashed, you’re clearly right about that.

    #6, and SUPERIORITY. Jason you don’t solve problems by announcing to the world that it’s my way or no way. That’s the same action that my boys mother took. As I said then, I would have NEVER done such an act.

    I think you’re really putting words in my mouth here. I fail to see how you get that from my posting here, it doesn’t make sense to me. I’ll ask you a theoretical question here: If God commands something, shouldn’t we follow it? Isn’t that the right way? I know, I know, you disagree with Mormon doctrine, and that’s fine. But doesn’t it make sense that if someone believes in LDS teachings that they would proclaim it to be the right way? I think the jist of the problem here is that people outside of the church view it be man-made, and so it seems very strange to them that people would put their lives in harmony with the teaching of the church.

    If you viewed the LDS church as being from God, then the issue I believe you are getting at disappears. The real issue is: Is this true, or isn’t it true? And yes, I know how you will anser

    I’ve learned about “free will”. God applies it when your heart speaks louder than all the rules or actions one performs.

    Aren’t your actions indicative of your heart? I mean aren’t they essentially the same thing? I don’t know. I am not trying to bash. I believe in the LDS church, I’m a convert, I wasn’t “brainwashed”, I’ve studied the doctrines for years, I’ve read anti literature for years. Yes, everyone has doubts about their religion. The jist of what I learned from all of my studies is that the LDS church is on a solid foundation, and it makes a ton of sense. It’s rationally appealing, and spiritually appealing as well.

    I don’t understand all the hostility against it. Are their websites set up bashing Catholics, or Baptists, or Evangelicals. Why is it just the Mormons? I mean maybe those websites are out there, I don’t see em’. Gotta go, PEACE.

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  8. Alicia says:

    “This website would do well to follow suit. It is set up to bash Mormons.”
    Methinks you have comprehension issues… I don’t know why people persist in labelling Natalie’s blog (a place to post her own opinions – if it’s all about bashing Mormons then why does she post personal stuff, like her vacations?) as anti-Mormon. She has repeatedly stated (in nearly every single damn post) that she loves Mormons, much of her family IS Mormon. This site is just a place to poke a little fun at some of the things they do and what is perceived to be nonsense. She thinks MormonISM is a bit screwy, but a lot of Ex-Mormons and non-Mormons think that too.
    “I don’t understand all the hostility against it. ”
    It’s not so much hostility as irritation. Mormons take it upon themselves to send people to your house to convert you, frequently cover up important issues, and basically harass you under the cover of wanting to do the right thing. It’s a very, very, very tricky thing to get out of Mormonism unscathed, oftentimes you lose a big chunk of your life to it: your parents, siblings, spouse, and even children don’t treat you the same anymore (in some cases they sever all ties) and things are tense. Even as you leave, they make it hard to take your name off the roles. Just ask Natalie, she was put back in two spots, one with her family and another with a son she never knew she had. She also had some experience with a woman who showed up at her house unannounced asking to see her daughter without even introducing herself about some Mormon kiddie thing.
    “And if you don’t like living among Mormons then leave. Why do you stay if you don’t like it? You make no sense.”
    Are you freaking kidding? How can you claim you don’t have feel superior when YOU are telling Natalie (it’s almost an order) to leave the place where she was born, where her family is, and where she has raised her children simply because you think that makes no sense? I thought family was important to Mormons, maybe I’m wrong. Natalie has all the right in the world to remain in Utah even if you don’t agree. She also has the right to say things you don’t want to hear, but keep in mind this is her own private blog. YOU came here and now you’re brazenly telling HER to leave her home? That sounds dangerously like the olden days, “comvert to my religion, DIE, or leave.” Meh …. I had more to say, but I really need to be getting to school. Bye y’all ~ keep on blogging Natalie! 🙂

    Like

  9. Natalie says:

    LOL, first of all, Trappees, YOU ROCK! LOL. Alicia, great response!

    Jason, hey, you are welcome here. I absolutely do not ever ask Mormons to leave. Ask Wayne. He’s still sticking around. He doesn’t always make a lot of sense, but his heart is in the right spot.

    HOWEVER, Jason, get your facts straight. This is a BLOG. A blog is basically an online journal. Most Trappees seem to realize that. Most Mormons don’t.

    I don’t claim to have the only truth. Except perhaps about funeral potatoes. THAT truth cannot ever be argued with. Them taters are GOOOOO-ooood. Other than that, Trapped by the Mormons is strictly about my experiences living as an Ain’t in the land of Saints.

    Are there good Mormons. Yup. Bad Mormons? Yup. Stupid Mormons? Yup. Smart Mormons? Yup. I didn’t set about writing this blog to prove that Mormons are wrong. In fact, if they STOPPED trying to prove to me that they had the ONLY TRUE THING, I’d be totally out of things to write about and you would all have to go find somewhere else to comment. Luckily, that’ll never happen…..

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  10. Mitchell says:

    Wow! I was preparing a lesson today for Elders Quorum and I got lost in your blog. I won’t tell you how I got here, but it has been interesting reading. Obviously I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. I won’t try and hide that 🙂

    Granted much has been posted, but I would like to comment on the original blog (or at least a few parts). First, I’ve done my best to surf around and find out more about this DVD. I’ve watched portions of various videos from the groups involved in the distribution, but I don’t know if any of them were part of the one in question. No one seems to mention the title!? What’s up with that? Is it untitled, or really incriminating?

    The point I’d make (not about the title) is that what I’ve seen has explicitly named Mormons and Mormonism. In all the LDS sanctioned/produced/distributed media I’ve seen, I’ve never, ever, EVER seen anything that has spoken about another religious organization by name, in a negative manner. I don’t think it exists. I’m echoing Jason’s comments, but it is a fact that the LDS church does not explicitly bad mouth other religions. (the LDS church, NOT it’s members, understand what I’m saying)

    Why should I talk poorly of other religions? I don’t feel threatened by them. Here is where many will read “superiority”. Don’t mistake confidence for superiority. I question my beliefs all the time, but my confidence grows as I find answers.

    You mention that “absolutes are, for the most part, ridiculous.” I disagree with that. I believe in many things that are absolute. I am the biological father of my children. Period. Fundamentally unquestionable and absolute. I believe that if I drive my car fast into a stationary object, there will be a reaction. Absolutely, unequivocally, and without question. I don’t know anyone who believes in a different outcome, sadly many try for one 😉

    The point here is that we live in a world where there are absolutes. This is not an invitation for a discussion on physics or quantum mechanics. That pool is too deep and I don’t know how to swim! Someone will say this or that theory was disproved and science is wrong, etc.. I would argue, our understanding is not always perfect and changes, but the underlying laws do not.

    The God I believe in is not only spiritual, but physical. He is the great designer and creator, and works within his framework. This framework, I believe is absolute. He doesn’t change how gravity works from day to day, or decide that oxygen is no longer the gas we need to breath. He is perfect. His design is perfect. He is singular and so is His design.

    Jeez, I think I was supposed to be working on a lesson!! I’ll certainly be back. I enjoy discussion and thought that makes me question my own beliefs. I think too many Mormons sit back and wait for the spoon feeding. Heck, I think too many people in general sit back and don’t question for themselves anything. Keep talking, I’ll listen.

    🙂

    Like

  11. Alicia says:

    I’m pretty sure that on the absolutes issue, she means strictly in terms of religious beliefs, not physics or other things like that. Other than that, good to have you aboard Mitchell 🙂 Natalie’s a great blogger and writer (read: you must buy her books) and she really makes you think about things 🙂

    Like

  12. Natalie says:

    Welcome Mitchell. I found your comment interesting. Please remember first off that my position, as it is, is AGAINST the distribution of this video. I do not agree with its unsolicited distribution. If someone wants to seek out this video, that is different, I guess, although I don’t really agree with the reason it was made.

    The title of the DVD, by the way, is Search for the Truth. Already, that sets off alarm bells for moi! The entire point of this video is to prove that MORMONS are wrong, and the ECs are right. Give me a break.

    Neither side is going to win that fight. Oh, they might have minor victories here and there, but in the long run? No winner. I promise.

    And yes, I know that there are absolutes in some parts of our reality, but if you say that Quantum Physics word again I might break out in hives! Religion is an area where there are NOT and cannot be absolutes.

    And while the Mormon Church may not EXPLICITLY talk about their superiority, it IS implicit, and unfortunately comes with the territory.

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  13. Allen says:

    Jason thankyou for your reply. However at this point , as Alicia pointed out, this is Natalie’s website that offers her views and experiences.

    I feel that for me to continue to your reply at this posting I would need Natalie’s approval.

    Natalie, I hope these words are not seen as rough or arrogant, its that I respect your website and if I need to continue disscusions with Jason through personal email contacts, I understand and respect your wishes.

    Like

  14. Jason says:

    Alicia and Natalie,

    I think you need to realize the impression this website has on people. When you have posts titled “Jesus Jammies up the Flagpole”, you call the LDS liars (in this post) this has to appear as offensive to LDS people and therefore “bashing”. I mean come on, I don’t need to explain this. I’m just calling a spade a spade. And yes you have every right to do this and stay in Utah and do whatever you wish (on this blog or anywhere else for that matter).

    But this type of behavior doesn’t make happy people, I’ve seen it before in others, and have experienced it somewhat myself. So when I say you should leave Utah, I am thinking you would be a lot happier elsewhere. It just doesn’t make sense to get this upset about a religion that you can avoid if you want to.

    I mean look at the picture at the top of the website “trapped by Mormons”. Are they keeping you in Utah or what? And the blindfold, what is the deal with that? I think the vast majority of people who look at that walk away with the impression that you indeed feel you are trapped and have no way of escaping.

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  15. Natalie says:

    Jason,

    MY LIFE IS HERE. My husband’s JOB is here. My family is here. My kids go to SCHOOL here. In other words, my entire existence IS HERE, and I don’t have to leave. I’m not really trapped. I’m just going to CHANGE it. LOL. The “if you don’t like it get out” mentality is NOT going to fly here. This is MY place, too.

    The title, however, TRAPPED BY THE MORMONS, is VERY tongue in cheek. It refers to a very old, kitschy movie of the same name. I did not come up with it, and I have NEVER hidden the fact I took it from the old, rather silly, black and white movie. You can take the graphic any way you wish. I suspect you already have.

    Isn’t free agency mahvelous? I understand you take issue with my headings. They are rather flamboyant, but you have to admit they catch your eye, right? Then you get pulled in and WOW, what has happened? Real dialogue about real issues and problems.

    And most of the postings are done with irony and HUMOR. You seem to have totally missed that. Try smiling. You might find it makes you a lot happier. This is NOT “behavior,” it’s commentary. A blog is an online journal. That’s what you have happened upon here…..

    And Allen, as long as the postings stay civil, feel free to address any comments you desire.

    Like

  16. Natalie says:

    Also, Jason, the fact that LDS Missionaries are encouraged to LIE to prospective members is documented. It’s recorded on video. Just follow the link I provided and you will see that it is true. It’s called “Lying for the Lord,” and is a common Mormon practice.

    The fact you don’t LIKE documented truth doesn’t change the fact it is documented and recorded for all to see.

    Like

  17. Allen says:

    Natalie, thankyou for your continued welcome. To EVERYONE, this website has truely been a blessing for me. The ability to interact with others, to write out my pain and differences is truely healing. I don’t have to hold it in any more and the anger and frustration is gone!

    WOW, I better shut up before an hourly fee comes into play.

    Jason, my reply(to your last reply to me) may look and sound elementary, but I’ve learned that that is the only way I can and be civil!

    I did not say you said you were superior. You won’t find that in my reply to you. Agree?
    “I” made a statement that was “my” opinion if “I” was to label “myself”. That’s why I said, “I’m not superior.”

    I did not say you attacked my faith. You won’t find that in my reply to you. Agree?
    “I” made a statement that was “my” opinion(which referenced to a personal altercation “I” was involved in). That’s why there are three “I”‘s, five “me”‘s. The three “you”‘s, only one is directed to you. I had to include that when I said, “…I have to disagree with you…”. The other two “you”‘s were general “you”‘s that are needed to complete “my” opinion.

    Have you been able to read the reply(in this subject) dated April 15th, 2007 @12:51pm?

    Yes I do believe my beliefs are true!
    I think this is where you and I disagree?
    “My” beliefs are based solely through The Holy Bible from cover to cover, nothing more, nothing less and “my” beliefs will never be compromised by organized religion.

    My intent is not to offend you. I hope we agree on that? To share more I would first like to know if you have read the above reply I mentioned?

    Like

  18. Jason says:

    Well, I don’t mean to offend people. So if I did, I am sorry. I wonder how wise it is to post on a place like this, but I do it anyways.

    And Allen, yes I did read your post. And I am not offended by your post, and I do agree that our difference are based on beliefs. I would have to say that your grammar is at the very least confusing though.

    I’m at work, so I can’t watch the missionary video right now. I read what you wrote about ths video though. I really do not consider the video lying (based on your description of the video). Avoiding controversial subjects that require extensive explanation does make sense to me. There are explanations for these topics, I myself have sought them out. They do require tremendous amounts of time, studying and background knowledge of the Bible and other LDS scriptures. People who are investigating the church are 100% likely to be lacking in at least some of the things necessary to understand these topics. I’d think there are many that wouldn’t understand if they had the sufficent background.

    I mean, take polygamy for example. It clearly has a biblical precedent with Abraham and several other figures in the Old Testament. I think all Christian faiths (or at least vast majority) would agree that Abraham is *the* patriarch of Christianity, Judaism and Islam give him a similar status. Most of the negative comments I hear concerning this practice center around it being un-christian, immoral etc. When you study the Bible in detail you find a different story. The vast majority of LDS (including me) I believe don’t want anything to do with it, there are even many quotes ( I suppose I could find them, definitely time consuming though) on record from people who practiced polygamy and dreaded it. It was an enormous source of persecution when the church started. I don’t think the LDS have a very solid explanation for it other than it was a trial of faith, it has biblical precedent, and it centered around following the prophet and leaders of the church.

    So, yes I definitely agree this is best not discussed with investigators. It’s like trying to explain Calculus to someone who hasn’t take a class in Algebra.
    I really encourage you to read the other side of these arguments. They are readliy available on the web. I have read into a lot of these controversial issues and I find them very interesting.

    I still take issues with the comments about garments and some of the other inflamatory things posted here. It’s just much, much better to talk about these things in detail, and to examine what both sides are saying.

    I actually do like documentation (a lot). If people stuck to documented facts about Mormonism there would be a lot less confusion about the religion.

    Like

  19. Joshua says:

    I love your site. I’m not mormon and never was. Sometime in the 60’s my grandma’s twin became one so I have all these mormon relatives. I’ve also had two friends that were brainwashed. (Girls) One was gay and lucky enough got out before they found out. I love your site.

    Like

  20. Agent Duke says:

    I guess you’ve never seen what a successful campaign of google-bombing can accomplish. Although not censorship, you can see how this act can skew search results for legitimate topics. In a deluge of information when you have someone helping you filter out the “garbage,” it can only help those seeking specific types of information without being “bombed” by the dedicated majority of slanderous sites.

    Will your own child accuse you of censorship when you take away his first playboy magazine he brings home? The better question is, “would you even care?” It’s not censorship to filter out results with a specific (and published, mind you) purpose.

    Like

  21. Natalie says:

    Uh, agent? Not sure what you are referring to, since your comment does not seem related to the topic.

    Like

  22. Stacey says:

    Natalie,

    I stumbled upon your blog when I began reading your book , “Behind Closed Doors” and was astounded to find the whole initiatory and endowment practices explained in detail within the first few pages. (Astounded because my hubby bought me the book for Mother’s Day of all things, and I didn’t pick it out myself!) Of course, having been raised in the LDS church, I just had to find out how you knew the intimacies of the temple. I’m still not really clear (maybe I haven’t read enough of your blog?) so want to know if you were married in the temple? Did it freak you out at the time? This is purely curiosity, nothing more.

    Also, what is this Lying for the Lord video? I can say from experience that I never heard or saw such a thing. I served a mission back in 1992-94 in the Dominican Republic and was never given instruction on lying to convert people. Is this something new that non-mormons and anti-mormons made and are claiming it is factual? Sounds kind of suspicious if you ask me.

    Last thing, please read my questions and comments with a smile on your face. I say this because sometimes it’s really hard to interpret the emotion behind postings and I want to make sure you, and whomever else reads this knows that I’m asking solely out of curiosity, not out of defensiveness or any other negative feeling. SOOO, if you initially read this with a frown, go back and read it again with a smile, cuz that’s how I’m writing it! 🙂

    Take care!

    Like

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