You know you've won the debate when someone goes into "Personal Attack Mode"

My lovely friend Laura is still answering my emails, and yet she gets angrier, and angrier, probably because she has realized she can’t shut me up or cow me. This is a common. I see it a lot. I am aware I won. I told her to stop acting like I was harassing HER, when she came to me. This was her response. My answers are within the text.

In a message dated 11/15/2006 8:52:25 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, laurastoutenburg@xxxxxx.xxx writes:
I CAME TO YOU?!!? You posted the story on your blog. What was the purpose of that if not to get reactions and responses from people??!! Just to make you feel better for having vented? Please. Talk about a load of crap.

It seems as though the more calm my manner, and more matter-of-fact, the more riled up you become. Interesting. Yes, YOU came to me. The operative words here are MY BLOG. You know that “free agency” thing Mormons are so found of spouting off about? YOUR free agency is not to come and not to read it. If YOU choose to come to ME and read MY blog, that’s your choice. You did come to me. Sorry if you don’t like it, but it’s the truth.

Here’s the bottom line truth. I have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to bear my testimony it is NOT true, and you do to bear your testimony that it IS true.

As for going on “feelings” YES. You are absolutely right. If we were given proof of everything here on Earth there would be no free agency, no choice for ourselves.

Huh? Sorry, but that is a silly argument and best, and ludicrous at worst. You’re spouting drivel. The difference between you and me is you think you HAVE to have all the answers, and I know that sometimes there ARE no answers. That’s all Mormonism does. It makes it easy. It makes you THINK you have all your bases covered. That works for you, FINE, but stop trying to tell me it has to work for me. It doesn’t.

We are given the opportunity to hear different points of view and different gospels and teachings and then choose for ourselves if it is true or not. There is no solid proof about all doctrine in ANY religion. It’s called FAITH. Ever heard of FAITH??

Why yes I have. I believe a group of people (about 76 of them) followed, David Koresh to their death in Waco, Texas, based entirely on faith. And then there was the 914 followers of Jim Jones who drank cyanide Koolaid and died in Guyana. Again, faith was VERY strong that day. Ever heard of actually THINKING for yourself and doing the research? Faith is fallible. Facts are not. And since you are getting more combative, I’m going to throw a few FACTS your way for you to chew on. I’m sure you will ignore them, although they will make your cyanide Koolaid a little harder to swallow.

*There is NOT ONE SHRED of archaeological proof that any of the events of the Book of Mormon EVER took place ANYWHERE in this world. This has become such a bone of contention that several Mormon “scholars” have taken to claiming it never took place here in North America at all. Despite the fact that Joseph Smith claimed it to be the history of America.

*There is SUBSTANTIAL DNA evidence proving beyond any doubt that Native Americans are NOT descendants of a lost tribe of Israelites, as the Book of Mormon states, but rather are descendants of Asia.

*The Book of Abraham, “translated” by Joseph Smith, has been determined to be a “Book of Breathings,” and totally unrelated to anything Joseph claimed it was.

*The “First Vision” story you heard when you were baptized was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence. Interesting huh? That’s also TEN YEARS after Joseph Smith began his missionary efforts. Guess he needed an effective tool. There are two other versions. One, in his own handwriting, says ONLY Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. Another version, recorded in Smith’s diary fifteen years AFTER it supposedly occurred, talks about two unidentified “Personages” accompanied by many angels. How could there be THREE significantly different VERSIONS of the CORNERSTONE of Mormonism? I can guess at that answer. Bet you can, too, if you even wanted to.

*In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Uh, if God appeared to ME and told me not to join another church, you can damn sure bet I wouldn’t be doing it.

The list goes on and on. There simply is NOTHING substantial for Mormonism to stand up except for faith. So you go with that.

We don’t have proof about a lot of things in our lives before we choose what we’re doing to do in different situations. We have to go with our “gut” our intuition our faith.

I prefer common sense, thank you very much.

Once again, you have not provided any specific information on your “research” about the church and why it is false.

YOU didn’t ask me to. Therefore, I did not presume to send you unwanted information. But you kept going, and so now I have given you some (see above), and I can give you much, much more. Except I’m sure you won’t and don’t want it. Why think? You are complacent in your ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE. Not knowing is scary. Some people can’t handle that.

I cannot research the claims if you don’t say what they are! You could at least refer me to a website or a book or something that explains all of these “issues” within the LDS religion.

Laura, you did not ASK me for this, and so I did not give it to you. I suggest you start here:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

Oh, and FYI, yes this is considered an “anti-Mormon” site, so go ahead and discount all you read without actually considering it. That’s common. That’s the way to do things in “faith.”

Again, you insist that I haven’t reasearched the church. I have. I just haven’t researched through the eyes of a non-believer, looking for flaws, the way that you have.

Reading Church-approved material is not research. The Church consistently censors, omits, and lies about their past. The official Brigham Young history, sanctioned by the Church, mentions only ONE wife. How odd.

I have researched it through the eyes of a believer and that is very different. I’m sure you think that is being disillusioned and brain-washed.

Yup, pretty much. Because until you actually TAKE all the facts, and weigh both sides, you are being brainwashed. Take a sheet a paper. Put all the facts against it on one side, and the facts FOR it on the other. I suspect all the “for” will end being “FAITH BASED,” or based on emotions and feelings, or community.

That is your choice and your right. You say you’re happy. I hope that’s true. If it is, why do you feel such a need to discredit and bad talk a religion that is deeply felt and believed by millions of good, hernest people, like your own parents?

I don’t discredit or bad talk anything. I TELL THE TRUTH. Mormonism is fascinating, warts and all. There are plenty of warts. Tell me, why do you talk up something so patently false and deceptive, and inherently harmful? Why do you feel the need to do that?

You say I started this. You posted the blog, you wrote the books(fictional of course).

You did start this “discourse.” You came to ME. To my blog. It’s your choice. It’s YOUR free agency. No one is holding you down and MAKING you read it. No one is asking you to come back. You are choosing to do so. As for me, I have AS MUCH RIGHT to say and write about how I think and feel as you do. And that’s the bottom line.

I am just a Mormon who is of course offended and ticked off by someone like you because your purpose with all of this is just to sling negativity on the LDS church and of course make money doing it.

Nasty little viper tongue you have there, Laura. Good try. Doesn’t work. I don’t sling negativity on the CHURCH. The only thing I do IS POINT OUT THE TRUTH. Therefore, the NEGATIVITY comes from the Church. Maybe you better look a little closer at your own desire to ATTACK ME. Where is that coming from?

Nothing more. You’re not trying to help people or bring them to light.

Well, I would, if I had the light. Or if I even THOUGHT you did. But you don’t. You just have this crazy stack of lies that you spout as truth. And you think you have EVERY right to do so, and everybody else should just shut up. Such a fascinating people, the Mormons.

You’re just venting your anger and frustration because you live among TONS of Mormons who you can’t stand and they drive you crazy.

Now you’re just being stupid. I love Mormons. I have lots of Mormon friends. I just don’t like the religion, and the atmosphere it creates.

I get that, they would probably bug me too but you choose to stay there in Utah and live amongst them. You don’t have to. I am a Mormon and even I would never want to live in Utah.

You’re right, I can stay away Natalie and SO CAN YOU……

Gee, thanks for the advice.

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About Natalie R. Collins

Natalie has more than 30 years writing, editing, proofreading and design experience. She has written 20 books (and counting), has worked for the Sundance Film Festival, and as an investigative journalist, editor, and proofreader. She embraces her gypsy-heart and is following her new free-thinking journey through life. Follow her as she starts over and learns a bunch of life's lessons--some the hard way.
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11 Responses to You know you've won the debate when someone goes into "Personal Attack Mode"

  1. Zim says:

    Proof is irrelevant. She’s right, faith must be decided in the heart.

    However, there are several things we can prove. The church has ALWAYS been DISHONEST about what it’s doing and what it has done. We do have PROOF that any known example of Joseph Smith “translating” has been shown to be incorrect (see Book of Abraham and/or Kinderhook). His Egyptian “words” are laughable.

    The point for me is that if the church has to lie and hide, it must have something to lie and hide.

    I suggest she start here: http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

    This is a fair look at 20 problems with the LDS church. Even though this guy is no longer a believer, his sources are valid and he does supply the apologist’s response.

    Like

  2. Cele says:

    Thank you for my morning laugh.

    It amazes me how people of faith talk in baseless circles. But I am seeing an emerging pattern over the years, young Mormons seeking out non-Mormon websites to test …themselves? their belief? the Mormon Church? certainly not their ability to spell and punctuate. And certainly not to learn. Then after they have read Natalie’s (and I suspect several other non-momo) blogs by their own volition, they strike out at the truth in baseless stupidity. And all because they read someone else’s blog of their own volition and didn’t like what they read, because if it is true they are worse than sheep,

    I am a person of faith, but my faith is placed in God, Jesus, and the universe. Not a bunch of books “translated and transcribed” in the 1800s by a man who hated, dominated, and lusted after other men’s wives.

    Laura, grow up. Use the brain you were given and learn. After you have learned ALL sides of an argument come back for a discussion based in fact.

    Like

  3. Theorris says:

    “get that, they would probably bug me too but you choose to stay there in Utah and live amongst them. You don’t have to. I am a Mormon and even I would never want to live in Utah.” Golly, Laura, the last time I checked Utah was still in the United States.

    Like

  4. Lyndsey says:

    “…your purpose with all this is just to sling negativity on the LDS church and of cours make money doing it.” Natalie, you don’t write for free?! I am shocked. Maybe one day Laura will figure out that that burning in her bosom is really just the inability to digest the ton of crap she has been fed her whole life.

    Like

  5. Tracy says:

    Ah…Laura, you’re suppose to look at the facts with a critical eye, look at everything good and bad, then make an informed disision…unless you like living in fantasyland?

    Like

  6. Kris says:

    Holy freaking moley….look what happens when I get sick for a month and then leave the country for a bit. Hehe.

    I think you are both bantering about stuff that is pointless. Sorry, you know my position on these things Natalie so why do you even give these people the time?

    K.

    Like

  7. Jack-in-Jill says:

    I’d only like to mention that if the average “attack” on mormonism consists of telling the truth about the church, then, well I suppose that I would and will continue to attack it. If this is an attack on the church, what would you call it if I REALLY started to rip on the church? I don’t do that though….as the church unintentionally does it to itself. It also does a better job of tearing itself down than I could.

    …I have one final thought:

    Offense. Here’s what I find personally offensive. Spreading a “gospel” that consists of things that can’t be tied to anything in history and telling people that you have “The Truth”. There is absolutely zero historical evidence to support the mormon claim. You could call that faith if you choose. Just keep in mind that unsupported faith fails, and blind unsupported faith causes failure…or new discoveries. I’ll leave that last option open. …you know, it was’t long ago that people using Laura’s type of “faith” just “knew” that the world was flat….and then they learned otherwise.

    Like

  8. Kris says:

    I suppose then Jack in Jill that you must spend a lot of time taking on the world’s other ills as well (other than the horribleness of the mormon church) like the plight in Africa, the not so legal war going on in Iraq, global warming, the pandemic of child abuse and child pornography….the list goes on. Surely you are just as horrified about those things too, because it seems to me that people spend a lot of time harping on the choices that other people make with regards to religion. It must be so hard to live your real life when trying to take on the entire world’s ills. Then again maybe it is just the mormon church that picks your butt. I’ll say it a million times over…I just don’t see how someone SAYING that they have the true church, or that they belive that they have modern day prophets, or that they believe in God and Jesus as two seperate entities or hurts YOU in any applicable way. As far a I see it, if it ends up not being true, who are the ones TRULY hurt?

    K,

    Like

  9. azteclady says:

    Kris,

    Maybe because the LDS are not just saying they have the true church. They also take it upon themselves to baptize the dead, regardless of what those people believed. If that’s not offensive arrogance, then I need a new definition of that term.

    But I agree that some “people spend a lot of time harping on the choices that other people make with regards to religion”–you know, like the Mormon missionaries who knock on unsuspecting people’s doors.

    Like

  10. Jack-in-Jill says:

    It would seem that I have raised the irritation level a bit….so be it. Kris, if you would like to believe that I spend too much time harping(that’s a bit mild…considering…) on others religion(s), feel free to do so. You are entitled to believe anything you choose. I’m sure that you feel my time, and the time of others would be better spent waging war against those “ills” of the world that you feel are really pressing….please….please, please, PLEASE, tell me what to feel, so that I don’t feel something that you won’t like. It should be forbidden to feel something that you don’t. Your feelings are much more valid than mine…..Concerning such, if you don’t like what I have to say, who really cares? It’s an opinion, no less valid than yours or anyone elses. It seems that you want to chew me up and spit me out over my opinion. ….umm, yeah…that’s smart.

    I’d like to offer you a quote from your own piece.

    “As far a I see it, if it ends up not being true, who are the ones TRULY hurt?”

    Let’s start with my family. Once I get them to understand that the mormon church is bunk with reguards to it’s legitimacy, I’ll start directing my attention to other things. My family is important to me. More important than what you would call the “ills” of the world. I’d bet that yours is too. Unless your off fighting those “ills” of the world. ….say, you wouldn’t happen to be holding me to a set of standards that you yourself have neglected…would you? They have a word for that you know. It’s h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e.

    Like

  11. Melissa says:

    “Faith” doesn’t mean “turn a blind eye to facts,” and I have little patience with people who disregard facts in favor of a highly skewed version of the “truth.” Faith is the meaning and beliefs you have about something AFTER all the facts are considered.

    I am, right now, reading my Bible. I’m not just reading it. I’m starting with the first chapter of Genesis and going story by story and meditating on it. I am supplementing with notes from my study Bible and with scholarly sources and with what I know from science and history. I’m not limiting myself to what some minister in my church says I should believe. And I am not glossing over holes (some so big you could drive the Queen Mary through). I’m evaluating it all and writing down my thoughts and opinions and beliefs.

    I have a very strong faith. But it is not blind, and I am not going to let my church tell me how to interpret a passage or tell me to believe something that clearly is contradicted by fact. That is not faith. It is at best foolishness, and at worse, stupidity.

    Like

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