Facts? We Don't Need No Stinking Facts….

Hello again Trappees. I regularly astound people, and it just makes me so damn happy. I always wanted to be the kind of person who was astounding.

My friend Tim, who apparently was quite bored and tired of making up Internet acronyms, came to my site, and then pointed out Ben’s comment to me. And of course, I must answer Ben, because he apparently WANTS an answer from the Astounding Natalie.

So, here we go.

Ben VerHoef Says:

August 10th, 2006 at 12:22 pm e

I happened to come across this website and I am astounded by the lack of information most of the people who have posted a blog have on the LDS church. To say that only 60 people were killed after the extermination order on the saints is to be ignorant of the facts or incapable of researching. The number of saints killed, raped, assaulted, or left for dead are far more than 60 before, and after the order. And that is not mentioning the untold millions of dollars in property and goods the saints lost to ravenous mobs in and around Missouri. The exact number is too great to document in this type of setting, but it would be smart to do your homework more efficiently before writing false claims and information about a religion. There are several other discrepancies on this site that are too numerous to counter, which is why the mormons don’t get up in arms when they are persecuted or hear horrible things said about them. They won’t waste time trying to correct false rumors or accusations because people will think what they want to think. It is better to try to spread their message of hope and peace to others without “convincing” them as someone wrote, but giving our message peacefully and leaving it up to the individual to pray and decide for his/herself.

Oh, for God’s sake, Ben, do I HAVE to go over this again? You just SAYING it is false doesn’t make it FALSE. Any more than you just SAYING the Mormon Church is TRUE makes it true. Give me some facts, please.

I would like you to back up your facts. Give me PROOF that more than 60 Mormons were killed.

You said:

The exact number is too great to document in this type of setting, but it would be smart to do your homework more efficiently before writing false claims and information about a religion.

HELLO? The exact number is too great to document? Let’s see. 60. Sixty. Siiiiiixty. Nope, not that hard to type. I can even add a 0. 600. Six Hundred. Doesn’t take THAT much space. Want another one? 6000. 600,000. 600,000,000. I CAN DO THAT in very little space. The truth is, YOU CAN’T refute my facts, so you are trying to hide the fact in disparaging comments like “do your homework.” YOU do your homework. Any idiot can see you have no idea what you are talking about.

In addition, please note that the Mormons were not just sitting there, all innocent and knitting and petting kittens, when the nasty Missourians descended upon them.

This was a WAR. The Mormons had been told that Missouri was their promised land, and they very arrogantly set about claiming it. They pretty much DECLARED the war, and it was cemented by Sidney Rigdon, who delivered an oration that set the Missourians on edge, and prepared to fight for their land and their lives.

In fact, Brigham Young said of Rigdon, “Elder Rigdon was the prime cause of our troubles in Missouri by his fourth of July oration.” (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, page 667)

Rigdon’s speech said, in part:

“And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.”–
Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, page 441

Noted Mormon Historian, B.H. Roberts, said, nearly 50 years later:

“…the deliverance of a very noted ‘Oration’ by Sidney Rigdon at Far West, on the Fourth of July, 1838, in the course of which there was expressed a strong determination to no more submit quietly to mob violence, and acts of pillage. At this distance of time from that occasion, and balancing against the heated utterances of the speaker the subsequent uses made of them to incite the public mind to that series of acts which culminated in the expulsion of the Saints from the state, we say those utterances were untimely, extreme, and unwise. So indeed they were. The speaker seems to have thrown discretion to the winds, and in the fervor of his rhetoric made threats of retaliation on behalf of the Saints.”

Now, I realize that in war, there are two sides. I believe the Mormons were the instigators, and have provided facts to support that claim, and still, I would say to Ben, “sure, there was death, and there was a loss of goods and properties. BOTH WAYS, Ben.”

Talk about a lack of facts. You haven’t provided ONE fact, or one source. I, the Astounding Natalie, have provided many. And can provide more, should you desire.

Ben said:

The exact number is too great to document in this type of setting.

Please. Only because you CAN’T! No one is fooled by your roundabout dismissal of my comments, without fact or foundation. This, of course, was cemented when you encouraged people to JUST PRAY ABOUT IT.

Get a grip. If you want to point out what you claim are lies, you better be prepared to back them up with fact. I’d be happy to listen. Until then, I might be tempted to say to Ben, “GET YOUR LYING ASS OFF MY BLOG.” But I won’t. Because I am the Astounding Natalie.

While I don’t take kindly to being accused of lying, I understand that people have their illusions and many wallow in those illusions, and have no idea how to deal with reality. It makes no sense? Good God, we better pray!

I have no reason to lie. I do, however, have reason to tell it like it is.

And Ben is just proof of that.


About Natalie R. Collins

Natalie has more than 30 years writing, editing, proofreading and design experience. She has written 20 books (and counting), has worked for the Sundance Film Festival, and as an investigative journalist, editor, and proofreader. She embraces her gypsy-heart and is following her new free-thinking journey through life. Follow her as she starts over and learns a bunch of life's lessons--some the hard way.
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23 Responses to Facts? We Don't Need No Stinking Facts….

  1. Tim says:

    I am astounded!


  2. Natalie says:

    Good! That was my intent!

    Signed, the Astounding Natalie


  3. Cele says:

    I come here for so many different reasons, education being high on the list, but I have to say watching the meltdown of self righteous igorance is probably the most fun.

    Ben, please, be aware that Mormon (whether it be church, person, group, what ever) is spelt with a capital M. Every time I see them do that I figure either all the Mormon shift keys are broken. Besides being proper, it’s a sign of recognition and respect.


  4. Natalie says:


    It is NOT me. I do NOT ask these people to come here. I don’t!! And you have to admit, there is no argument there. Give me a valid argument. I know there was some persecution, but history shows it was small, and much of it brought on by the Mormons. And they did their OWN persecuting, too. It’s just history.


  5. DarqueStar says:

    which is why the mormons don’t get up in arms when they are persecuted or hear horrible things said about them.

    You mean like you are now?

    They won’t waste time trying to correct false rumors or accusations because people will think what they want to think.

    You mean like you are now?

    It is better to try to spread their message of hope and peace to others without “convincing” them as someone wrote, but giving our message peacefully and leaving it up to the individual to pray and decide for his/herself.

    You mean like you are now?

    I love it when TBMs describe all the ways they DON’T respond to criticsim whilst actually doing all of those things.



  6. Natalie says:

    LOL, Darque. Very funny. And true.


  7. Moon says:

    when Mormons “consecrate” livestock(what anyone else would call Rustling), burn fields and houses, rape and pillage to their hearts content, it is not surprising to see the local peoples rise up in anger against them. All of these actions are well documented as reasons for the extermination order. To claim that Mormons are innocent is to be ignorant of the piles of evidence of the Mormon criminal activities in Missouri.


  8. (lifting my coffee cup in a toast to the Astounding Natlie)

    It would be alcohol, but my doctors don’t let me drink. Waaaa!



  9. Kris says:

    Personally, I think an extermination order put out against ANYONE/ANY GROUP is just plain disgusting. In a world where anyone can justify they are right regardless of the fact that they might not be, I find it discouraging and horrifying to hear comments like ‘they deserved it’. It was an EXTERMINATION ORDER people. I think pretty much every society on this planet has effectively proven that they have learned NOTHING from past mistakes. I wonder what the next ‘extermination order’ will be and under what guise it will be carried out. I could go on but I just don’t feel it is worth it…you get the point.



  10. Cele says:

    Kris, who said they deserved it? No one said that, they said they instigated that. To deserve and to instigate mean two entirely different things. Hot heads often lead innocents to slaughter – it doesn’t mean they intended the slaughter to happen, it doesn’t mean they intended to die. It certainly doesn’t mean innocents deserved to die.


  11. Natalie says:

    I agree that the extermination order was wrong. I think the point here is we are not defending whether or not it was right. What I have issue with is the take that it was TOTALLY unprovoked. That is not true.

    Good points, Cele!


  12. T-Bone says:

    Sorry, Ben. You’re a tool. Let’s see. You’ve visited one site by an exmo, and you’re already astounded at the lack of info ‘most’ people have. Visiting one site makes you a statistical expert on many web sites? I guess what they say in academia is true, sloppy writing is a sign of sloppy thinking.

    You can’t really blame you for that, kiddo You have been raised in a system of sloppy thinking called Mormonism.


  13. Nice post, Natalie. And I agree, the RFM no blog link policy sucks. Who knows what their reasoning is, but my best guess is that they don’t want to lose traffic.


  14. Karin says:

    I always knew you were astounding, Nat.


  15. Melissa says:

    I stumbled on your blog and I have to say I love it! I will definately be a loyal reader!


  16. kd says:

    That Rigdon was using the rhetoric of extermination before the “extermination order” is very significant. In skiffs like the early Missouri land war, the wanks in charge tend to match eachother’s rhetoric. Rigdon’s declaring an extermination war was answered with an extermination order. Such are the games that politicians play.

    Most of the Mormons I know were supporting this very tit for tat strategy in the current Isreal Lebanon war. Isreal (the good guys) were trying to exterminate Hizbollah which had declared an extermination war against the Jews. Some times the tit for tat strategy works. It does not work with ideologies like Hizbollah and the Mormons that record every tat twice and conveniently forget all of the tits.


  17. I wish I got hatemail from the Mormons.


  18. Chief Smarty says:

    How can anyone forget all of the tits?

    Just kidding. I just tripped over this site and will be back. Very entertaining.

    Natalie – You write well. Do you speak as well as you write?


  19. Natalie says:

    Hi Sinister,

    It can be entertaining. That’s the funny part. They don’t know it amuses me.

    Hey Chief, I am relatively well spoken. I’ve been on the radio a few times, even. Television once or twice. Oh, yeah, and got some hatemail from my radio appearances.

    kd, again ALL excellent facts. Randy Jordan said I could link to his archives of his arguments about the extermination order, so I’ll have to go back and find those and link to them.

    Melissa, WELCOME! Glad you found us.

    Karin, thank you for FINALLY admitting my astoundingness. Hmm. That does not sound like a word. But I like it.

    Eight Hour Lunch, WELCOME!

    T-Bone, good to see you here. Hope you become a regular.


  20. 16yearsexMormon says:

    The LDS have told so many lies about their history, and shielded their members from a truthful interpretation of it, that they are no longer credible. I left in 1990, after 13 happy years, because of the shennanigans that surrounded the purchase of the Mark Hoffman White Salamander letter. A GA actually said at the time that the members shouldn’t concern themselves with history; just do as the prophet said. Even though the prophet to be was buying forgeries in the belief they were the real thing.


  21. Natalie says:

    Oh, man, the Hoffman thing was always a kicker for me, too. HOW can people not see that their “current” profit KNEW something was amiss with Joseph Smith’s story… To the point he was buying up everything he could find just to HIDE IT AWAY. And he ended up aiding and abetting Mark Hoffman in his murders.


  22. 16yearsexMormon says:

    Have you read the book about Hoffman? It seems that Gordon Hinckley organised loans to buy from Hoffman a collection of correspondence that the church already had in its possession.
    A seer?


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